Hilltop - is it worth it?

[spoonz]

So Toddmeister, essentially u condone dubious practices if the ends justify the means ?

If your gonna tell me u truly believe some of their pre Dyno runs are a true reflection then your opinion is greatly de valued for me.

I don’t doubt the talent of hilltop or that the software works as I have said. It’s the jazz hands used to sell it as something it’s not that bugs me. You all skirt around it one way or another but you know it’s dubious.

It’s a self inflicted situation and a needless one. I suspect u won’t see the likes of 80bhp gs lc dyno runs again. I certainly don’t underestimate the effort required to run and maintain a business as I do it myself. But integrity is hard won and easy lost.

 

[wileeeeeey]

For what it's worth I think the comments here are very fair. No one is saying Hilltop is bullshit, they like it and are happy to have it done, just don't like the fakery of the "before" runs and would rather just get in and out quicker and not be taken for mugs.

For what it's worth I had my last GS Hilltopped and I will probably have the one I collected last night Hilltopped after the running in service.

 

[TonyZZR]

I must admit that if (when) I get another bike done by Geoff I would not bother with the dyno runs, you gain nothing in terms of map customisation, just before and after BHP & Torque figures. Mine 'increased' by a huge margin, the bike definitely feels faster but not tens of horsepower faster. Its the smoother running and improved throttle response that matters to me and IMHO is worth the outlay for that

 

[Toddmeister]

So Toddmeister, essentially u condone dubious practices if the ends justify the means ?

If your gonna tell me u truly believe some of their pre Dyno runs are a true reflection then your opinion is greatly de valued for me.

I don’t doubt the talent of hilltop or that the software works as I have said. It’s the jazz hands used to sell it as something it’s not that bugs me. You all skirt around it one way or another but you know it’s dubious.

It’s a self inflicted situation and a needless one. I suspect u won’t see the likes of 80bhp gs lc dyno runs again. I certainly don’t underestimate the effort required to run and maintain a business as I do it myself. But integrity is hard won and easy lost.

I'm surprised you place any value on my opinion fella, for it is just that "my own personal view" and you are perfectly at liberty to disagree with it!

I've not seen any definitive evidence the pre-map dyno runs are faked, since both times I've been there my pre map figures seemed entirely reasonable. Don't forget that a few folk used to say the post map results were all fake, that was until a few people got independent dyno tests and found them to be entirely accurate, so other objections started up instead.

The point I made is that a lot of unsubstantiated accusations and inferences have been thrown at Hilltop over the years, a substantial number of which have been shown not to be true

Like a lot of other people my personal experience of going there was extremely positive, which is why I was a repeat visitor last year with my new bike and why I am highly likely to go back again.

 

[stanley]

The bikes that I've had done didn't show unusually huge gains either. I had the first done in 2013 (iirc)... So about the same time as the one on the Aprillia thread.


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[spoonz]

I'm surprised you place any value on my opinion fella, for it is just that "my own personal view" and you are perfectly at liberty to disagree with it!

I've not seen any definitive evidence the pre-map dyno runs are faked, since both times I've been there my pre map figures seemed entirely reasonable. Don't forget that a few folk used to say the post map results were all fake, that was until a few people got independent dyno tests and found them to be entirely accurate, so other objections started up instead.

The point I made is that a lot of unsubstantiated accusations and inferences have been thrown at Hilltop over the years, a substantial number of which have been shown not to be true

Like a lot of other people my personal experience of going there was extremely positive, which is why I was a repeat visitor last year with my new bike and why I am highly likely to go back again.

Everyone’s opinion I take at face value If it’s reasoned and well mannered and if not then I don’t.

As I said before the pre runs are often erratic but not always which is suspicious in itself. Let me ask u straight, do u believe a gs lc made 80bhp pre hilltop but 106 after from afr alone or an rsv4 made 129 (stock is about 150) and 152 after ?
I’m not doubting the after which is totally reasonable just the before. If u do you will u Indulge me and explain why you do and if u don’t why your not saying so.

These sort of debates are what forums are made for imo, no one is necessarily right or wrong as a result. Not mud slinging and name calling etc, just points of view exchanged. Then future readers can make a reasoned opinion based on reasoned replies.... in theory at least.

 

[Warlord]

Sorry, your figures just don't stack up...

I'm out.

 

[Blackal]

Sorry, your figures just don't stack up...

I'm out.

Thank fuck, cos you had become like Engineer - demanding ‘proof’ from customers, rather than from Hilltop.

Don’t let that door, bang you on the butt.......... on the way out.

 

[Engineer]

Thank fuck, cos you had become like Engineer - demanding ‘proof’ from customers, rather than from Hilltop.

Don’t let that door, bang you on the butt.......... on the way out.

Nothing has changed, Hilltop will still not answer straight questions.

 

[wileeeeeey]

Nothing has changed, Hilltop will still not answer straight questions.

Why don't you pop up there, pay your money, then get a refund and have your ECU set back to factory?

 

[Tractors are go]

Nothing has changed, Hilltop will still not answer straight questions.

Which is ???

If you had invested, considerable time money and effort, would you divulge your trade secrets.

The phrase commercially confidential seems appropriate.

All though it was PM or Pre Me, as I understand it, you made certain claims about reading what was written to the "chip".

Any update, or is it still a work in progress ?

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[Toddmeister]

Everyone’s opinion I take at face value If it’s reasoned and well mannered and if not then I don’t.

As I said before the pre runs are often erratic but not always which is suspicious in itself. Let me ask u straight, do u believe a gs lc made 80bhp pre hilltop but 106 after from afr alone or an rsv4 made 129 (stock is about 150) and 152 after ?
I’m not doubting the after which is totally reasonable just the before. If u do you will u Indulge me and explain why you do and if u don’t why your not saying so.

These sort of debates are what forums are made for imo, no one is necessarily right or wrong as a result. Not mud slinging and name calling etc, just points of view exchanged. Then future readers can make a reasoned opinion based on reasoned replies.... in theory at least.

As you've already stated you don't question Geoff's abilities and the post map results he gets, but you're concerned about the pre-map results and have cited a couple of specific examples which you're particularly uncomfortable with. Your explanation is that Geoff is obviously fiddling the results in some way to over emphasise the gains achieved.

So there's a pretty obvious solution to your dilemma, just go straight to the source and give Geoff a call to express your concerns and discuss what he believes the reasons were. Hopefully he'll be able to remember the bikes in question, and any particular modifications (or otherwise) which they had. Even if he can't he should be able to have a reasonable discussion with you, which will either allay your concerns, or reinforce your current beliefs.

I'm sure there will be a lot of folk on here who will be interested in what you find out.

 

[smudger64]

I think Hilltop reap what they sow to a large extent. If they sold it for what it is which is probably worth the money, there would be no discussion. But they try and make u feel all rosey about the extra cost by having dyno runs that are at best dubious and at worst out outright con.

Would I hilltop my bike, probably but I would just have the flash. I could get a more meaningful dyno graph from my local primary school.

So I’m a believer in the flash but not the circus they put on around it.

Yep. Agree 100% and had the flash (but not the dyno) and happy with the results.


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[spoonz]

As you've already stated you don't question Geoff's abilities and the post map results he gets, but you're concerned about the pre-map results and have cited a couple of specific examples which you're particularly uncomfortable with. Your explanation is that Geoff is obviously fiddling the results in some way to over emphasise the gains achieved.

So there's a pretty obvious solution to your dilemma, just go straight to the source and give Geoff a call to express your concerns and discuss what he believes the reasons were. Hopefully he'll be able to remember the bikes in question, and any particular modifications (or otherwise) which they had. Even if he can't he should be able to have a reasonable discussion with you, which will either allay your concerns, or reinforce your current beliefs.

I'm sure there will be a lot of folk on here who will be interested in what you find out.

I might try but at a random time in the next few weeks so it’s not obviously me. I believe that has already been tried though ( not those specific dyno runs ) but in general and he will not go there. I doubt he could even answer the question on those runs based just on loading a map and the 2 runs and nothing in depth. He’s hardly going to say cos I rolled off seconds before wot on the pre run to lean it off if indeed that was the case. Although I use those 2 examples they are not isolated examples or unique to those marques hence why I felt there was something to it.

If I was Geoff and that figure came up I would expect him to question the run and maybe do it again or direct the owner to a dealer because something is possibly wrong. Because as a clever professional dyno operator he would know it’s an anomoly to have an 80bhp lc for starters which then goes to 106 plus the torque from my flash alone. In the case of the gs he is on here to verify his bikes health etc at the time and since. Certainly when I’ve had dyno runs, they are usually quick to point out anything that looks odd and by odd I mean significantly smaller odd than those examples.

 

[Warlord]

Thank fuck, cos you had become like Engineer - demanding ‘proof’ from customers, rather than from Hilltop.

Don’t let that door, bang you on the butt.......... on the way out.

Yeah, your door can kiss my ass.

My issues here are summarised as follows:-

Claims that standard engines make peak 20+ BHP from fuel tweaking, claims that factory engines are running so lean that they are too dangerous to run on a dyno, happy to take your money with no detailed explanation.... and they stand by those statements as professionals. It stinks.

I've seen a video earlier in this thread where the rear tyre is almost off the dyno under full load, and skid marks on the plate... that's not a professional setup, with care and skill.

A BMW R1200GS and GSA are big heavy adventure bikes, for touring and off-road. So unless your bikes fuelling is so bad it's frequently stalling, having an extra few BHP isn't going to make any difference in performance where a drop into a lower gear would suffice (or rev the engine more, with more throttle imagine that !!). Same with Akrapovic Titanium exhaust for £1500... total waste of money.

You're not Valentino Rossi where the fuelling needs to make that much of a difference for a 0.01 laptime advantage, it's in your head like a worm eating at your wallet. You Hilltop lot are blind to it on your BMW's and they are laughing all the way to the bank.... with your money, not mine

Carry on you muppets

 

[Tractors are go]

Yeah, your door can kiss my ass.

My issues here are summarised as follows:-

Claims that standard engines make peak 20+ BHP from fuel tweeking, claims that factory engines are running so lean that they are too dangerous to run on a dyno, happy to take your money with no detailed explanation.... and they stand by those statements as professionals. It stinks.

I've seen a video earlier in this thread where the rear tyre is almost off the dyno under full load, and skid marks on the plate... thats not a professional setup, with care and skill.

You lot are fucking blind and they are laughing all the way to the bank.... with your money, not mine

Carry on you muppets

Have you ever considered seeking professional help for your issues ?

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[Warlord]

Have you ever considered seeking professional help for your issues ?

... hey, it's my opinion. Go back and read it again, I've added more

 

[Tractors are go]

... hey, it's my opinion. Go back and read it again, I've added more

I'd, I have.

As a CEng, I have often seen spurious readings, with no logical explanation, or rather nothing that could be identified as the cause.

Did that make those either doing the work or taking the readings, "at it" cheating etc ?

If, Geoff was doing as you suggest, surely the competition would send someone to catch him out and prove he is a charlatan.

As for the video, I haven't seen it, but also know things need to be observed in their entirety and from multiple angles to get a better understanding.

I do get that you are sceptical, which you are entitled to be, in the same way that others are not.

It is the continual attacks on others, who disagree, that does you the disservice.

There are lots of different routes, to the same destination. You have yours, I have mine.





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[Toddmeister]

I might try but at a random time in the next few weeks so it’s not obviously me. I believe that has already been tried though ( not those specific dyno runs ) but in general and he will not go there. I doubt he could even answer the question on those runs based just on loading a map and the 2 runs and nothing in depth. He’s hardly going to say cos I rolled off seconds before wot on the pre run to lean it off if indeed that was the case. Although I use those 2 examples they are not isolated examples or unique to those marques hence why I felt there was something to it.

If I was Geoff and that figure came up I would expect him to question the run and maybe do it again or direct the owner to a dealer because something is possibly wrong. Because as a clever professional dyno operator he would know it’s an anomoly to have an 80bhp lc for starters which then goes to 106 plus the torque from my flash alone. In the case of the gs he is on here to verify his bikes health etc at the time and since. Certainly when I’ve had dyno runs, they are usually quick to point out anything that looks odd and by odd I mean significantly smaller odd than those examples.

Good man! Not sure about the secret squirrel bit as Geoff doesnt come on here much and I doubt your name in real life is Mr Spoonz, but at least you're making an effort to get the information you want directly from them rather than relying on the spurious shite and bollox that's posted on here.

I'm completely comfortable with my view on Hilltop as its been pretty much based on my direct personal experience of dealing with them, together with all the other stuff I found out just by doing it (see posts 387 and 393). I don't have any issues with the pre-map figures as mine were all where you'd expect, as were those of my good friends who have also been. The big issue I did have with him is that his coffee and biscuits were a bit crap

Hope you get the information you need to feel comfortable dealing with them and let us know how you get on.

BTW - you say you like debating on forums, so why not pay the subs and then you'd have access to the complete UKGser world of "interesting" opinions

 

[Warlord]

I have.

As a CEng, I have often seen spurious readings, with no logical explanation, or rather nothing that could be identified as the cause.

Did that make those either doing the work or taking the readings, "at it" cheating etc ?

That comparison is completely irrelevant.

a) This isn't engineering. It's a SERVICE an individual will have to pay for.
b) Your Engineering results are not motivated by personal financial gain. Their 'fault finding' is, it's like a scene from Rogue Traders when a Gas Engineer condemns your boiler, fits a £12 part and charges you £900 to use it again.
c) From what I've heard anybody claiming their money back gets a frosty response and more time wasted as a consequence.

If, Geoff was doing as you suggest, surely the competition would send someone to catch him out and prove he is a charlatan.

Haha, and what on earth would they gain from that.... prove that you don't need a Dyno and Remap on a BMW R1200GS or GSA, because the gains are just not there... Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense for another Dyno Company to prove that one.

I do get that you are sceptical, which you are entitled to be, in the same way that others are not.

It is the continual attacks on others, who disagree, that does you the disservice.

Oh please.... like the continual attacks that anyone gets who happens to question Hilltop on here. I don't care other than the continuous BLEATING of new Hilltop owners with their £350 voodoo charts claiming 20 to 25 bhp increase. WTF is that all about, except complete naivety and bullshit.

It's dishonest. The more people realise they don't get a faster bike, what's the point in going there and handing over £350 of your hard earned, if fuelling isn't stalling their bike?