R1250GS Rattling noise

[Wierpig]

^^What have you tried in an effort to sort it, Wierpig?

First I persued it through the dealers.Neither of the two I tried would admit to hearing the noise.I provided an audio sample.They said it sounded like stones hitting the engine from underneath.No fault found.Absolutely useless.
So I contacted BMW customer services.What a misnomer.They were worse than useless and just referred me back to the dealer.
This went on and on and in the end I gave up.As a qualified motorcycle mechanic, Ive always serviced my own bikes and they tried to blame the quality of oil ( theirs, Advantec ).
I put a borascope down the plug holes and checked the combustion chambers.Some carbon fouling so I tried the BMW fuel additive.Seemed better after this but soon returned.So I tried octane booster.No effect.98 octane fuel didnt sort it.But Ive noticed it varies in intensity with fuel quality, and its noticeably reduced in Europe.
Pinking will only cause engine damge if it occurs near peak torque, which this doesnt so Ive given up.It rides great and its got 25000 on it now.1250 shift cam.My previous 1200 wet head did it as well for 30000 mls.

 

[scarab1987]

First I persued it through the dealers.Neither of the two I tried would admit to hearing the noise.I provided an audio sample.They said it sounded like stones hitting the engine from underneath.No fault found.Absolutely useless.
So I contacted BMW customer services.What a misnomer.They were worse than useless and just referred me back to the dealer.
This went on and on and in the end I gave up.As a qualified motorcycle mechanic, Ive always serviced my own bikes and they tried to blame the quality of oil ( theirs, Advantec ).
I put a borascope down the plug holes and checked the combustion chambers.Some carbon fouling so I tried the BMW fuel additive.Seemed better after this but soon returned.So I tried octane booster.No effect.98 octane fuel didnt sort it.But Ive noticed it varies in intensity with fuel quality, and its noticeably reduced in Europe.
Pinking will only cause engine damge if it occurs near peak torque, which this doesnt so Ive given up.It rides great and its got 25000 on it now.1250 shift cam.My previous 1200 wet head did it as well for 30000 mls.

I am also an engineer at all type of Marine engines with internal and external combustion. I disagree that is detonation or pre ignition. First of an all a new engine with 0 kms cannot have carbon deposits. Also there are knock sensors there that catch the low quality fuel. So a new engine with 100 octane fuel with octane booster is impossible to detonate. The noise is mechanical. More news soon..

 

[Wierpig]

I am also an engineer at all type of Marine engines with internal and external combustion. I disagree that is detonation or pre ignition. First of an all a new engine with 0 kms cannot have carbon deposits. Also there are knock sensors there that catch the low quality fuel. So a new engine with 100 octane fuel with octane booster is impossible to detonate. The noise is mechanical. More news soon..

Good luck But I think you are getting mixed up between pinking and detonation.

 

[Hann]

They said it sounded like stones hitting the engine from underneath

 

[scarab1987]

Good luck But I think you are getting mixed up between pinking and detonation.

I believe that none of them are happening at this bike.

 

[TIJ650]

I have already remapped my bike in the safe way of course. Bike runs great at complete rev range. But the rattling noise remains exactly the same. For me the one that is remaining to check is the clutch. I have already all the special tools needed and wait just to do 3000kms to do it together with oil change. I have studied too much the clutch system and I think that I am very close to the solution. I believe that is a wrong design issue, like the updated tensioner, and because it doesn't do any damage to the bike Bmw just ignores it. But my ear cannot ignore at all. I will have news in 1.5 month approximately.

Motorrad will never admit it, but they’re more concerned with Euro 5/6 emission regulations than fuelling the engine correctly through the rev range. They also retard the timing to achieve the same goal.
This not only causes pinking issues, but also makes the engine run hotter.
All manufacturers are the same, but BMW goes a little further by making it difficult to rectify with their closed loop setup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scarab1987]

Motorrad will never admit it, but they’re more concerned with Euro 5/6 emission regulations than fuelling the engine correctly through the rev range. They also retard the timing to achieve the same goal.
This not only causes pinking issues, but also makes the engine run hotter.
All manufacturers are the same, but BMW goes a little further by making it difficult to rectify with their closed loop setup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Believe me, maybe is the easiest bike to remap and achieve correct afr at complete range. After remap bike is smooth as butter even with Dynamic mode at 2000rpm. We achieved also to have lower average consumption. Exhaust flap delete and lower the radiator fan temp. Bike runs much colder. Imagine that now after all those the oil comes much less black from change to change.

 

[sven]

My 2022 GSA pinks/rattle badly between 2500-3000 rpm under load. It‘s quiet when revved at a standstill. It‘s annoying in slow moving traffic or first gear hairpins, but the dealer said there was nothing wrong with it at the second service.

My 2019 GS didn‘t have this issue, but it was Euro 4 so maybe didn’t run as lean?

 

[scarab1987]

My 2022 GSA pinks/rattle badly between 2500-3000 rpm under load. It‘s quiet when revved at a standstill. It‘s annoying in slow moving traffic or first gear hairpins, but the dealer said there was nothing wrong with it at the second service.

My 2019 GS didn‘t have this issue, but it was Euro 4 so maybe didn’t run as lean?

Some bikes of the same year and same euro emissions don't have the rattling noise. It is mechanical noise for me.

 

[TIJ650]

Believe me, maybe is the easiest bike to remap and achieve correct afr at complete range. After remap bike is smooth as butter even with Dynamic mode at 2000rpm. We achieved also to have lower average consumption. Exhaust flap delete and lower the radiator fan temp. Bike runs much colder. Imagine that now after all those the oil comes much less black from change to change.

My normal tuning guy who uses Dynojet equipment said there was no Power Commander that was compatible because of the closed loop setup. I ended up putting a Booster Plug on which helped with off idle response, but still lean at midrange. Who would you recommend for remap?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scarab1987]

My normal tuning guy who uses Dynojet equipment said there was no Power Commander that was compatible because of the closed loop setup. I ended up putting a Booster Plug on which helped with off idle response, but still lean at midrange. Who would you recommend for remap?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But what do you need a power commander for a bike that already has wideband lamda sensors and unlocked BOSCH Ecu. It is useless. An experienced programmer with necessary cabling can do what he likes. I have done here in Greece. Threre are several programmers here that you can send your ecu, remove the map torque limiters, set new afr targets at the rev range and the bike ecu with wideband sensors with adapt abd adjust everything as necessary.

 

[TIJ650]

But what do you need a power commander for a bike that already has wideband lamda sensors and unlocked BOSCH Ecu. It is useless. An experienced programmer with necessary cabling can do what he likes. I have done here in Greece. Threre are several programmers here that you can send your ecu, remove the map torque limiters, set new afr targets at the rev range and the bike ecu with wideband sensors with adapt abd adjust everything as necessary.

There’s no one in Scotland (that I’m aware of) with this level of expertise. There’s a few in England with hot and cold feedback (like Hilltop! Lol and BHP in Burnley) - so haven’t bothered. Will get round to it eventually. £300-£400 quite pricey too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scarab1987]

There’s no one in Scotland (that I’m aware of) with this level of expertise. There’s a few in England with hot and cold feedback (like Hilltop! Lol and BHP in Burnley) - so haven’t bothered. Will get round to it eventually. £300-£400 quite pricey too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here in Greece the average is 350 euros but worth the money. Bike tranformed.

 

[EVskiy]

It’s a tractor, they all do it Sir. At BMW, we call that, character.

 

[Morety]

My 2022 GSA pinks/rattle badly between 2500-3000 rpm under load. It‘s quiet when revved at a standstill. It‘s annoying in slow moving traffic or first gear hairpins, but the dealer said there was nothing wrong with it at the second service.

My 2019 GS didn‘t have this issue, but it was Euro 4 so maybe didn’t run lean?

Nope, both Euro 4 and Euro 5 engines have the exact same issue and if anything, it's less pronounced imho on the shiftcams which are better fuelled than on Euro 4 WCs. I've had two 1200's, one 2016 and now a 2018. They both pink like mad under load and the only cure short of a remap and slight advancement of the ignition, is to ride them at higher revs when under load. Lug the engines and they'll respond with a crescendo of pinking. Healthier for the engine longer term.

 

[Santa-2512]

Has anyone done any analysis of the sound with an oscilloscope?

if it was two objects hitting each other it would be a square or triangle wave , the sound is more like a sine wave , a harmonic,

One train of thought says camchain slap, the other could be the cam chain moving back and forth rapidly in an unsupported portion of its run ?

 

[scarab1987]

Has anyone done any analysis of the sound with an oscilloscope?

if it was two objects hitting each other it would be a square or triangle wave , the sound is more like a sine wave , a harmonic,

One train of thought says camchain slap, the other could be the cam chain moving back and forth rapidly in an unsupported portion of its run ?

I have installed spacers at cam chain tensioners with different sizes without any change. So for me tensioners are out of the game.

 

[sven]

Nope, both Euro 4 and Euro 5 engines have the exact same issue and if anything, it's less pronounced imho on the shiftcams which are better fuelled than on Euro 4 WCs. I've had two 1200's, one 2016 and now a 2018. They both pink like mad under load and the only cure short of a remap and slight advancement of the ignition, is to ride them at higher revs when under load. Lug the engines and they'll respond with a crescendo of pinking. Healthier for the engine longer term.

My 2019 GS was a shift cam 1250 and didn’t pink/knock like my 2022 GSA does between 2500-3000 rpm

 

[Morety]

Does it do it when you raise the revs? Lean running engines don't like being laboured.

 

[sven]

Does it do it when you raise the revs? Lean running engines don't like being laboured.

Only under load, so it definitely runs lean at those revs