RISE NOW AND BE A NATION AGAIN !

[Deleted account 190920001]

I cannot believe that you can say 'I don't believe independence comes at a cost' and expect to be taken seriously.

We have already explained that there are massive costs involved in setting up all the offices of state required by a new country. From a DVLA to an HMRC to an MOD etc etc etc

Add to this the growing ranks of businesses who have indicated they will take their businesses ..and jobs...away. Include all the jobs lost for example in defence production..shipbuilding..that will go.

Consider the declining value of oil production.

Look at the uncosted promises made by eck and the accolytes.

The consequences of there being no plan for a credible currency, no central bank, no reserve funds, are that the international credit rating will be apalling, therefore no state borrowing.

'I don't believe independence comes at a cost'!!! Sorry, I'm afraid you need to get real!

How can you say we would have an appalling credit rating? Where are you referencing this from? You go to the bank for a loan and they look at your assets, we have massive assets. If Westminster doesn't hand over any of current UK assets that we joint own and pay for Scotland will break from a the rUK with zero debt. At that moment in time that would be a very rare if not unique situation. Of course that is unlikely to happen and there will almost certainly be some form of sharing or handing over of currently shared assets and Scotland will split with debt.
One of the credit rating houses has already went public and stated that an independent Scotland would have a very good credit rating.
Honestly you bang on and on about propaganda when you yourself are one of the worst distributors of it on behalf of the no campaign. What's worse is you rarely if ever provide any reference to where these ideas are coming from. So is this self opinionated propaganda on behalf of the no or can you enlighten us with references?

 

[gerarddwatts]

Of course its my opinion!!!

You just don't seem to get it. There is no plan for a currency, or a central bank. Thats it. The whole adventure is scuppered!

To pretend it'll be alright somehow is just plain dishonest.

 

[Coolcarbon]

There is no plan for a currency, or a central bank.

They could always try something like this.

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

It's equally dishonest to protest that we would have absolutely nothing and no way of getting anything.

All your doing is scaremongering but then you are only towing the party line of "project fear" and the better together campaign so we can't blame you personally.

Surprised nobody has jumped all over the guardian article. Toddy where are you? Personally it holds no weight with me being anonymous but it is an odd article from an otherwise pro union paper.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

How can you say we would have an appalling credit rating? Where are you referencing this from? You go to the bank for a loan and they look at your assets, we have massive assets. If Westminster doesn't hand over any of current UK assets that we joint own and pay for Scotland will break from a the rUK with zero debt. At that moment in time that would be a very rare if not unique situation. Of course that is unlikely to happen and there will almost certainly be some form of sharing or handing over of currently shared assets and Scotland will split with debt.
One of the credit rating houses has already went public and stated that an independent Scotland would have a very good credit rating.
Honestly you bang on and on about propaganda when you yourself are one of the worst distributors of it on behalf of the no campaign. What's worse is you rarely if ever provide any reference to where these ideas are coming from. So is this self opinionated propaganda on behalf of the no or can you enlighten us with references?

Does this help

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ould-lose-UKs-AAA-rating-warns-Citigroup.html

Meanwhile Standard and Poors say Scotland could have a AAA rating but this is conditional "The S&P reports clearly states there would be a transition period and that: ‘If Scotland were not to join a monetary union then Scottish financial institutions would not have access to lending facilities from a major central bank such as the European Central Bank (ECB) or the Bank of England’." The report concludes: ‘In short, the challenge for Scotland to go it alone would be significant, but not unsurpassable’. That is exactly the position I take. A well managed fiscal policy could help an Independent Scotland prosper but we are not going to get that from any of the likely governments. These predictions of Scottish prosperity in independence are predicated on a belief that an independent Scotland would have a monetary union with prudent fiscal policies that make the most of the many assets that Scotland has. That is incompatible with a bloated public sector, nationalised industries and high taxation. Nothing that has been put forward by any of the front runners to govern an independent Scotland give me any confidence that they realise this.

If you want to see what a socialist Scotland would look like you need do no more than look over the channel into France. The French love of equality and state ownership are probably the closest to what the Scottish electorate think is good for them. This is the result

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/10390571/france-hollande-taxes-socialist-farrage.html

 

[gerarddwatts]

OK, its simple.

Put what you call my 'scaremongering' to rest once and for all.

Tell us what the plans are for the currency of an independent Scotland?

 

[Toddy]

11 good news stories for YES - the tide has turned

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/11-good-news-stories-for-the-yes-the-tide-has-turned/

 

[Gav]

Interesting, Toddy.

Andy Myles was involved in negotiating the Constitutional Convention and I think he was the Scottish Liberal Democrats’ chief executive in the run up to the opening of the parliament.

He is quoted: “As a liberal, I believe that sovereignty starts with the people and is passed upwards. Devolution is, on the other hand, about sovereignty being passed downwards, however benevolently.”

“I campaigned for a devolved parliament because it brought power back closer to the people, and I thought it might shake-up the UK constitution and lead to major reforms. I now see that this was a naïve hope or belief.”

Do you think we might see a few Lib Dems follow suit?

 

[Gav]

The Stimulator:

Why won't the SNP say what they will do if a currency union doesn't materialise?

After a party has expressed its proposals or intentions, why would you then think they might offer another option which is contrary to their expressed opinion? This is a highly unusual suggestion. Some of the other parties haven’t mentioned one option, let alone two, so I don't see how you could expect the S.N.P. to express a second one.

 

[The Stimulator]

The Stimulator:

After a party has expressed its proposals or intentions, why would you then think they might offer another option which is contrary to their expressed opinion? This is a highly unusual suggestion. Some of the other parties haven’t mentioned one option, let alone two, so I don't see how you could expect the S.N.P. to express a second one.

Quite simply Gav, because of the ones you have mentioned most are favouring an independent currency and hence don't need to offer a plan B, unlike the SNP, whose preferred option has been ruled out (albeit for the moment according to a non-attributable source). If your option has been ruled out, you have to have a new plan, and treat people as if they were intelligent beings entitled to know what you will do.

Of course, they could just let people go into the biggest decision of their lives (and gamble the whole future of the country) on a currency whim, and then possibly see it all go horribly wrong. To me, a refusal to tell those citizens (that they are paid handsomely to represent) their plans if there is no currency union is treating the people of Scotland like sh*t. I can't see how intelligent people can make such an important decision with any confidence in those who will lead us (and I know there will be an election in 2016, but realistically who is going to challenge the SNP?).

Just look at their stance on NATO membership - campaigned for years that they would leave NATO, and then confirmed at their conference in 2012 that this pillar of their manifesto would be dropped. Imagine this was a key factor influencing your decision, and there was this sudden 180 degree switch after you had voted?

 

[Toddy]

Moving to YES

Yes Gav, and not only Lib Dems, http://www.yesscotland.net/news/icm-poll-confirms-more-and-more-people-are-moving-yes
Even know a few Tories that have seen the light.

 

[Gav]

The Stimulator, The S.N.P. have said what their proposal is. If the electorate don’t like it, they don’t have to vote for them. It is not the norm for a party to lay out a policy or proposal and then respond when someone suggests they give them a different one.

You mention that things could go horribly wrong. I happen to think things are horribly wrong now. Independence is not a short term option. The currency we adopt could well be. We should not be focussing on short term economics. Economic situations can change from one week to the next. Independence is about so much more. And if we do make mistakes, we’ll be able to make decisions here in this country to try and sort them out, rather than be dragged along by policies which don’t suit us, made in another country by a government who don’t care about us and most of the population didn’t vote for.

Some of the other parties haven’t mentioned one option, let alone two, so I don't see how you could expect the S.N.P. to express a second one.

My last comment obviously wasn’t directed at the Green Party or the Socialist Party because I had made reference to them and as you say, they have expressed their views.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

The Stimulator, The S.N.P. have said what their proposal is. If the electorate don’t like it, they don’t have to vote for them. It is not the norm for a party to lay out a policy or proposal and then respond when someone suggests they give them a different one.

You mention that things could go horribly wrong. I happen to think things are horribly wrong now. Independence is not a short term option. The currency we adopt could well be. We should not be focussing on short term economics. Economic situations can change from one week to the next. Independence is about so much more. And if we do make mistakes, we’ll be able to make decisions here in this country to try and sort them out, rather than be dragged along by policies which don’t suit us, made in another country by a government who don’t care about us and most of the population didn’t vote for.


My last comment obviously wasn’t directed at the Green Party or the Socialist Party because I had made reference to them and as you say, they have expressed their views.

The difference between the SNP proposal and a normal election manifesto is that parties normally commit to what they can deliver when in power. The fact that they are elected with a majority means they can push through their policies in the face of any opposition. With the SNP currency proposal the size of their majority is irrelevant if the UK government sticks to its refusal to enter a currency union. That is why people want to know what the fall back position would be if in deed there is one. I don't want independence but if it happens my first preference would be a monetary union with the rest of the UK but voting for the SNP would not get me a currency union because it is not in their power to deliver it. The absolute worst scenario would be a currency linked to the euro or the euro itself and I think there are many like me who would be more inclined to consider independence if we knew that option was not the SNP fall back position. These things need to be decided before the referendum because it is too late to try and change your mind when you discover that what you thought was going to happen to your savings is not actually happening.

I get what you say about sorting out our own mistakes but some mistakes are just too big to sort out and some political parties are too entrenched in their political dogma to be able to take the decisions necessary to tackle the big mistakes. The UK electorate has a history of swinging back and forward between centre left and centre right governments. there is no indication that the Scottish electorate can see anything beyond hard left and harder left. Proportional representation helps smooth out the worst excesses but its not enough to save us from our addiction to hammering those who have to give to those that have not and a bloated public sector to oversee it.

This is the sort of effect that bad policies can have on an economy and don't think it can't happen in Scotland. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...socialist-policies-drive-businesses-away.html

 

[The Stimulator]

The Stimulator, The S.N.P. have said what their proposal is. If the electorate don’t like it, they don’t have to vote for them. It is not the norm for a party to lay out a policy or proposal and then respond when someone suggests they give them a different one.

You mention that things could go horribly wrong. I happen to think things are horribly wrong now. Independence is not a short term option. The currency we adopt could well be. We should not be focussing on short term economics. Economic situations can change from one week to the next. Independence is about so much more. And if we do make mistakes, we’ll be able to make decisions here in this country to try and sort them out, rather than be dragged along by policies which don’t suit us, made in another country by a government who don’t care about us and most of the population didn’t vote for.


My last comment obviously wasn’t directed at the Green Party or the Socialist Party because I had made reference to them and as you say, they have expressed their views.

Gav, unless I have misunderstood completely, the Referendum is not to vote in the SNP, and by the time we get a vote on who will be leading the country in 2016 the currency issue will need to be sorted.

If there are no confirmed currency options by then, how can any government decide its budget? I believe it is obvious that the SNP will win the Scottish election in 2016, but will they be able to issue a manifesto if they don't know what they will have available.

A currency decision cannot be a short term option; you can't go chopping and changing as it suits. Yes an economic situation such as the crash of 2007-2008 can occur suddenly, but sound economic planning must be the way forward, and it is this lack of planning on the part of a major player in the independence debate that causes me a great deal of concern. They have been told their preferred option will not happen; how do they propose to provide a stable currency for Scotland to meet all it's requirements.

Independence is way way bigger than party politics, but unfortunately politicians have to be involved.

 

[Gav]

The Stimulator, yes the referendum is about independence, not whether you or I vote for the S.N.P.. It is you who has been asking about the S.N.P..

It sounds like you would want the S.N.P. to offer an option other than the one they have offered when other parties have yet to mention one. I don’t see you suggesting that they offer their polices. I don’t agree that it is obvious that the S.N.P. will win the first election.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

The Stimulator, yes the referendum is about independence, not whether you or I vote for the S.N.P.. It is you who has been asking about the S.N.P..

It sounds like you would want the S.N.P. to offer an option other than the one they have offered when other parties have yet to mention one. I don’t see you suggesting that they offer their polices. I don’t agree that it is obvious that the S.N.P. will win the first election.

The SNP and the tree huggers are the only parties in the current parliament advocating independence. They are the only ones who have to say what their plans are regarding the currency. The SNP have been told that their plan is not going to happen so that only leaves the green's proposal. Why would any of the parties that oppose independence say what they plan if the country votes yes? I have heard nothing from the SNP about their policies when the country votes No and would not expect to hear them until after the vote.

 

[Gav]

Bennysdad, the yes campaign and independence movement are much more than two political parties and their parliamentary representatives.

The S.N.P. do not speak for the entire independence movement. They have stated their plans for a currency. As I said, anyone who does not agree with their policies does not have to vote for them.

For decades, the S.N.P. have stood for elections with manifestos containing many policies which would operate within the British state system. I don’t think it is too much to ask for the unionist parties to say what they would do when we’re independent, especially as we’re having a referendum on independence this year.

Why would any of the parties that oppose independence say what they plan if the country votes yes?

This could easily be turned around to “Why would the S.N.P. who have proposed a monetary union say what they plan if this is then deliberately blocked for some reason?”

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

Bennysdad, the yes campaign and independence movement are much more than two political parties and their parliamentary representatives.

The S.N.P. do not speak for the entire independence movement. They have stated their plans for a currency. As I said, anyone who does not agree with their policies does not have to vote for them.

For decades, the S.N.P. have stood for elections with manifestos containing many policies which would operate within the British state system. I don’t think it is too much to ask for the unionist parties to say what they would do when we’re independent, especially as we’re having a referendum on independence this year.


This could easily be turned around to “Why would the S.N.P. who have proposed a monetary union say what they plan if this is then deliberately blocked for some reason?”

Because the unionist parties are proposing the status quo it is the nationalists who want to change and they are asking the Scottish people to support independence. It is not unreasonable for the Scottish people to ask what is going to happen if there is no currency union on offer. It is clear that the question of a currency union is pivotal to many potential Yes voters and the nationalists are aware that to admit the probability that no such currency union would happen would be a deal breaker for these wavering voters.

 

[Packer]

This could easily be turned around to “Why would the S.N.P. who have proposed a monetary union say what they plan if this is then deliberately blocked for some reason?”

The parties that oppose independence don't have to say what they would do in the event of a Yes because they don't want or expect a Yes vote. However the Pro-I parties do want it and if they expect intelligent people to support them they need to tell those people how they plan to deal with key issues. They proposed monetary union and this appears to have been ruled unacceptable by the BoE and Westminster which is not surprising as Scotland would likely be on a divergent political track. So, quite rightly, people are asking what is the alternative? Instead of saying "we'll create our own currency", or "we'll adopt Sterling anyway albeit without a formal currency union" or "we'll join the Euro" there is just silence or a repeat of the claim that we'll have what we're being told is unavailable.

 

[Toddy]

Ladbrokes aren't in any doubt

Press Release
Press Releases
Wednesday 29th January 2014 | 16:26

Ladbrokes: Scotland 1/100 to enter currency union - 50/1 not to


Ladbrokes press release

Scotland certs for currency union

Scotland are a racing certainty to form a currency union should they vote 'yes' to independence, according to Ladbrokes.

The book is now open on the prospects of the formation of the union, should Scotland break away from the rest of the UK and it's a near-certainty at 1/100 that they keep sterling, with 50/1 the price that any other currency, including the Euro, is used.

For context, Scotland are 50/1 to win the upcoming 6 Nations while 1/100 is the price Scotland would be to beat San Marino in an international football match.

Alex Donohue of Ladbrokes said: "It's about as uncompetitive as a betting contest can be. Punters would win a penny for ever pound staked on an independent Scotland sticking with sterling."

Ladbrokes latest betting

Scotland to form a currency union with the United Kingdom before the 31st of December 2015