Runing in my new 2008 GSA

[mbp]

And why is oil consumption regarded as a good thing? It exists because of a gap between two parts that shouldn't be there. How do you get rid of it? You make the parts work together - you can't do that unless they are under pressure. You don't see machinists taking .2mm cuts everytime because they are running in the tool. You need to load the tool to get it to cut. If it breaks, the tool was faulty! It doesn't automatically become the error of the operator.

Oil is not there to plug gaps. The clearances are there for a reason: a thin film of oil has less friction than metal on metal.

The point is some oil loss is not a big deal. Since the oil is replaced anyhow every 10,000km we're talking about 2-10% more usage.

Look at journal bearings instead. A piece of swarf in an oil gallery blocks flow. You ride the thing so gently that you never become aware of the starving bearing as it disintegrates over many thousands of miles. That same bearing will be there, wearing out as well, even if you run the bike hard - why should it fail at any less miles than the other case?

And if you ride it hard, what happens? If you rode it hard and then stripped it down to look for problems it might help, but people don't do that on road bikes.

To the degree there is a bedding-in process, the engine will be shedding some muck into the oil - metal particles, degraded oil, etc. The rate of wear likely increases more than linearly with rpm. So, the more you rev it, the more dirty the oil is going to be before you get to the first service, and the less protection it'll be giving to the engine. So it's a similar effect to delaying the first oil change.

I'm not a Mech Eng though.

 

[Paul Wakefield]

What does it matter ?

No idea. It was a clear distinction from the other engines quoted so might not be a relevant comparison. I'm sure I read somewhere that air/oil cooled engines have greater tolerances.

 

[Phil Clarke]

There is plenty of empirical evidence that running in a bike hard doesn't lead to warranty claims.

Yeah right! who is going to pursue a warranty claim for a blown up engine and tell the dealer they didn't run it in! - What people are taking about here (including the website) is not running it in at all - I suggest that (contrary to what that website says) that running (or not) as it suggests could lead to damage to a shell bearing or gearbox pinion. If you were lucky it might fail under warranty and you may be even luckier in getting it sorted under warranty. If you were unlucky it would manifest itslef after the warranty ran out inwhich case your screwed. So RUN IT IN!

And why is oil consumption regarded as a good thing? It exists because of a gap between two parts that shouldn't be there. How do you get rid of it? You make the parts work together - you can't do that unless they are under pressure. You don't see machinists taking .2mm cuts everytime because they are running in the tool. You need to load the tool to get it to cut. If it breaks, the tool was faulty! It doesn't automatically become the error of the operator.

Look at journal bearings instead. A piece of swarf in an oil gallery blocks flow. You ride the thing so gently that you never become aware of the starving bearing as it disintegrates over many thousands of miles. That same bearing will be there, wearing out as well, even if you run the bike hard - why should it fail at any less miles than the other case?

Not entirely sure of the relevance of any of this. Any swarf from an engine will get caught in the filter as its between the pump and the crank

this is interesting - you believe that running it in and warming it up before loading the engine are independant concepts? Do you also believe that throughout the world, the mechanic who puts your bike together is the gentlest rider the bike will ever see?

Er yes?? sorry you've out obscured me again... the point is you need to do both to guarantee engine longevity. A PO (judging by many of the comments on here) may have done neither and I don't want to pick up the bill.

there seems to be an idea that the mechanic fires the thing up and imediately red lines it in every gear. I bet in reality they warm it up fairly gently (as they manouver out of the yard and through the town the dealership is located in and then probably rev it up resonably without caning it (they are on roads with speed limits and I bet their bosses tell them to
take it easy.)

I've rebuilt many engines and I have a good idea how best to run them in.

 

[Engineer]

A little mechanical sympathy will ensure that your bike has a long and healthy life.

 

[Engineer]

Then why do most/all bike manufacturers have a first service AND oil change at 600miles.

karl

Because it's not a car.

 

[Bones]

I personally don't think that doing 20k on a new engine before an oil change is a good idea.

Cars engines are often run on the bench and so have their first oil change before they leave the factoty

 

[Russ-AFC]

Im not a subscribed Tosser as yet, so cant visit the for sale forum, but i sure as hell would check some of the names on this thread before buying a bike.

Im sure the manufacturers ascribe to keeping below the red line as well as the running in criteria. But i guess i can ignore that too!

People do realise that anyone can write any thing they want on the internet right! They can even get books published and distributed.

Make sure of the authoritative nature of any document before you follow it and its relevance to you. If you dont want to do that one cure for your ailment would be: to kick a wasps nest then launch yourselves off a tall building with no parachute, preferably into a shark infested pool in the middle of a swamp crawling with alligators. Reference from Kings Concise Guide to Medical Issues 2001 (With Aug 2004 Rewrite).

 

[karlp]

Im not a subscribed Tosser as yet, so cant visit the for sale forum, but i sure as hell would check some of the names on this thread before buying a bike.

Im sure the manufacturers ascribe to keeping below the red line as well as the running in criteria. But i guess i can ignore that too!

People do realise that anyone can write any thing they want on the internet right! They can even get books published and distributed.

Make sure of the authoritative nature of any document before you follow it and its relevance to you. If you dont want to do that one cure for your ailment would be: to kick a wasps nest then launch yourselves off a tall building with no parachute, preferably into a shark infested pool in the middle of a swamp crawling with alligators. Reference from Kings Concise Guide to Medical Issues 2001 (With Aug 2004 Rewrite).

Absolutely

 

[R1200GSA]

Car engines are totally different, particularly diesals. Customer demand is for minimal service intervals as most cage drivers do big miles. I personally don't think that doing 20k on a new engine before an oil change is a good idea. I bet some design engineer in citroen reckonned that as the warranty will run out long before problems from a badly run in engine will manifest themselves they had nothing to loose from deleting the post run in service (which costs the manus a fortune)QUOTE]

Can you explain exactly what makes you think "car engines are TOTALLY different".

Then you kinda loose me with your version of why Peugeot/Citroen etc. have chosen to go for 20,000mile service intervals. Is it at the behest of customers, or because the guy at Citroen is penny pinching with his fingers crossed that he doesnt get pumped with a load of warranty headaches?

P/C and VAG which includes SKODA amongst others make up a big chunk of the fleet/repmobile/hire/Taxi market and quite a lot of of these cars do quite heavy mileages. Anywhere between 20-60,000 miles plus a year. So what you are implying, the lack of servicing was going to cause trouble, would not make sense.

What percentage of theses high mileage users take the time to drive about like a nancy for the first 1000 miles, errm im guessing, not many.

What percentage of them have had their engines"blow up" after all this terrible abuse?

The dealers should be packed out of the doors with cars waiting for engine transplants if this was the case.

Is it not within the realms of possibility, that these manufacturers have decided to put all this modern day technology into perspective by saying that their machines are better manufactured and put together, maybe even more robust, than previously and therefor require less maintenence.

 

[nick_boxer]

Make sure of the authoritative nature of any document before you follow it and its relevance to you. If you dont want to do that one cure for your ailment would be: to kick a wasps nest then launch yourselves off a tall building with no parachute, preferably into a shark infested pool in the middle of a swamp crawling with alligators. Reference from Kings Concise Guide to Medical Issues 2001 (With Aug 2004 Rewrite).

This is very very good advice.

Ignore the multiple theories of the internet experts, follow the manual. The very worst thing to do is regularly to keep it at constant speed (e.g. on a motorway) during the running in period. Gives you ridges in the bores which can later lead to broken rings. (I kicked a wasp's nest once by accident and would never ever do it again .)

 

[bonox]

Oil is not there to plug gaps. The clearances are there for a reason: a thin film of oil has less friction than metal on metal.

Oil is never there to plug gaps - in fact, oil doesn't work where you have a large gap - that's why you lose it! Have you looked at examples of combustion ring blow by? (the motomoan site has a few examples, and they can also be found with google). The quickest and easiest method of getting rid of the gaps is to run the engine firmly - in fact, modern engineering tolerances and machining methods mean that this process is mostly irrelevant anyway.

The point is some oil loss is not a big deal. Since the oil is replaced anyhow every 10,000km we're talking about 2-10% more usage.

Once again, it is more useful to look at why the oil is being lost, rather than looking at how much it costs to top it up. What is happening AS the oil is being lost?

Anywhere you have high pressure gas streaming past the pressure and oil scraper rings, you have no oil at all. Thus you move from hydrodynamic lubrication to boundary lubrication as the oil turns to charcoal, then finally to nothing. (kinda like from seperated oil film, to contact grease, to nil). Now the process happens rather quickly, which is why it isn't more of a problem.

And if you ride it hard, what happens? If you rode it hard and then stripped it down to look for problems it might help, but people don't do that on road bikes.

I think you might be misinterpreting the difference between 'firm' and 'hard'.

To the degree there is a bedding-in process, the engine will be shedding some muck into the oil - metal particles, degraded oil, etc. The rate of wear likely increases more than linearly with rpm. So, the more you rev it, the more dirty the oil is going to be before you get to the first service, and the less protection it'll be giving to the engine.

This is true, but also ignores the presence of the oil filter. If a particle large enough to cause significant scoring of a part doesn't get caught in the oil filter, it isn't going to come out with an oil change. This was my point about a blocked oil gallery earlier - it is a fault, and will rear its head at some point without regard to how you ran the bike for the first hundred miles of its life.

 

[bonox]

there seems to be an idea that the mechanic fires the thing up and imediately red lines it in every gear.

where did everyone get the impression that 'run it in firmly' means start from cold and go balls to the wall?

That isn't suggested in the manual, common thinking OR in the motoman guide. All that was suggested is warming the thing up, and then doing a little more than taking 5 minutes to get to 60mph a few times in the early life of the engine!

Crumbs!

 

[GSmonkey]

I've been fortunate enough to run in a few cars and bikes from new. Always run in as per manufacturers instructions which are virtually always the same i.e. keep below a certain rpm, vary throttle settings and speed. Fairly simple.

Never had a subsequent problem e.g. knackered engine or one that drinks oil.

Your bike - your choice.

 

[Captain GSA]

I've been fortunate enough to run in a few cars and bikes from new. Always run in as per manufacturers instructions which are virtually always the same i.e. keep below a certain rpm, vary throttle settings and speed. Fairly simple.

Never had a subsequent problem e.g. knackered engine or one that drinks oil.

Your bike - your choice.

I 2'nd that..........I've done the same. It is in the interest of the manufacurer to give you the best advice....

 

[bonox]

It is in the interest of the manufacurer to give you the best advice....

Just out of interest, but i've still not heard any comments on the potential for the "best advice" to be legal in nature and not technical... Thoughts?

 

[barney]

triumph

Hi Andy,
Sorry to hear that you feel the Triumph engine is better, having ridden both I felt the triumph to be inferior in many ways, Quality,reliability,warranty,economy,residual, need I go on! Sorry but Iv'e had so many friends with problems with Triumph, many of which will never go back! I own a few bikes ,Including a GSA,Kawasakis.Suzuki's and a Yamaha , none of which have caused any problems!

 

[mbp]

I think you might be misinterpreting the difference between 'firm' and 'hard'.

I'll ask my wife ;-)

You did use both the words "firm" and "hard" in your previous post. If you meant "rev it but don't abuse it" then I agree with you.

 

[bonox]

I'll ask my wife ;-)

You did use both the words "firm" and "hard" in your previous post. If you meant "rev it but don't abuse it" then I agree with you.

I don't abuse my vehicles even when they've got more than a hundred thousand on them. Why start when they're new? They all see more than 4000rpm in the first 20 miles though, but not in the first 20 seconds! Honda has a great explanation in their owners manual (road bikes at least - never owned a honda off road bike). It said "for the first 1000km, use the whole rev range but no full throttle starts". That's it for their running in advice.

 

[Delirious]

I pick up my new '08 GS on 8th March and know exactly how I'll be running it in. Will mainly be sticking to the manual / dealers guide with occasional forays into the higer RPM's but not red-line. I won't be riding it like I stole it but I won't be babying it either. It'll have to pull hard through all the gears and then I'll be using a lot of engine breaking as well.

Should sort it nicely.

Cheers,
Delirious.

 

[karlp]

I pick up my new '08 GS on 8th March and know exactly how I'll be running it in. Will mainly be sticking to the manual / dealers guide with occasional forays into the higer RPM's but not red-line. I won't be riding it like I stole it but I won't be babying it either. It'll have to pull hard through all the gears and then I'll be using a lot of engine breaking as well.

Should sort it nicely.

Cheers,
Delirious.

Absolutely correct