Starter woes, anyone had this?

[MOGGY]

Hello all,
Went to start 850 that has been standing for a year the other day.
Battery, gel type was disconnected 12 months ago.
Bike would not start, no surprises there.
Charged battery overnight, started first time, ran around two days.
On way home, headlight bulb blew, both dip and beam.
Stopped bike 20 mins, would not start, nothing on pressing starter.
Took battery to shop, tested and told useless.( The battery, not me.)
Bought new battery, 44 pounds for gel type...took home, would not start, only rapid repeated clicking from solenoid on starter.
Charged new battery 8 hours, still only clicking. Removed and cleaned solenoid, brushes fine. Replaced starter. Only solenoid rapid clicking. Tried again, engine turned slowly, then quicker, then started. Gone to garage every 4 hours, bike starts fine now. Am going back to shop to get old battery back...any ideas anyone?

 

[Pekkavee]

Maybe this fix could help you
http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/squeaking_starter.pdf

Pekka

 

[roddy]

unless i missed something, you bike now works but you want to put a known duff battery back in ?

 

[John Armstrong]

unless i missed something, you bike now works but you want to put a known duff battery back in ?

Maybe he wants to see if the test the bike shop did on his original battery was flawed, as when he fitted the new battery, there was no change in the symptoms?

 

[MOGGY]

Starter

Hello, all.

Just wanted to know if anyone had experienced this and then found the starter to work normally.
Mine has now gone back to being sluggish at times. I suspect the starter itself as the solenoid makes a healthy click but the engine is not being turned over at full speed sometimes and not at all when cold.

I wanted to get the battery back in case there was nothing wrong with it and the man in the shop got it wrong when he said it was knackered.

 

[alexeft]

Broken off magnets within the starter maybe?

 

[Pauly S]

think outside the box

You need to get, beg borrow steal etc a multimeter and check all the supplies to the starter, and the battery earth cable too.
youll have to remove the fuel tank for access.it also means the engine wont run with the tank off either, which you need.
Then put meter on dc volts 0-20v should do, then put neg probe(black) on the led(soft metal grey bit) negative terminal of the battery and not the bolt, then the meter pos lead(red) to the metal engine crankcase, then crank over,you should get less than 0.5 dc volts on cranking,crank for around 4-5 secs to let the meter stabilise, if there is more, you have a bad earth, this is the "voltage drop principle"
next test
Then volt drop the positive, go from the + led(the grey soft metal bit) positive terminal of the battery with the pos lead(red), and the neg lead(black) go down to the permanent live + of the starter motor, and this is the important bit, make all the measurements whilst under load, ie crank it over, it should be under 0.5 volts dc cranking, if any greater than this , then you have a bad positive supply to the starter.
next test
meter pos lead(red) to the permanent supply terminal of the starter motor, the negative lead(black) to the terminal which supplies voltage to motor itself,ie output from the solenoid they are side by side, 1/2 inch apart, again less the 0.5 volts dc rule applies whilst cranking under load.
next test
measure the voltage going to solenoid exciter wire,multimeter black wire to engine metal earth, and the red multimeter wire to the small terminal on the starter which engages the solenoid, this should be around 9 volts whilst cranking, and is normally the same voltage you get at the battery whilst the starter is cranking.
note:
ive misspelt lead(soft metal battery terminal material)as "led" on purpose, to differentiate from Multimeter "lead" ( the wires which go the meter) as this can be confusing, and is not an "light emitting diode"
let me know how you get on with these tests.also take the old battery to a different bike shop, or get a friendly rac patrol to test the battery for you.we all have bike battery testers in our vans.all the best.Paul

 

[MOGGY]

STARTER

Hey ,many thanks, thats a cracking piece of info. Puts to shame those of us that run out and buy and replace parts that have nothing wrong with them!!
I have left the bike and come to the mainland today where I have another 850. I have bought the starter motor and relay with me and will put them on the 850 here. one at a time. If it acts the same I will know that is where the prob is.
I did look at the earth point for the neg lead under the battery tray and it did not look too good with brown corrosion. It is poss the magnets have come loose or off...will report back with developments.

 

[Pauly S]

why

Why change stuff when you dont have to,... diagnose the fault, and repair and replace whats faulty/wrong.
you are just getting your hands dirty for nothing.
bet you a fiver its a bad connection or a bad supply/earth.
Also when its runnning check the battery voltage whilst the lights are on, you should be getting 13-14 volts dc full load at 2000-2500 rpm.
you can check the charging voltage at the permanent live terminal on starter if you cant get to the battery.
Paul (orange van man)

 

[MOGGY]

FOUND IT

After fitting the suspect starter motor to the second bike it worked ok for the first 2 days then same clicking noise and no engine turning.
Put the known good starter back, works fine....
SO......;.DUFF STARTER....did open it and all seemed fine....prob the magnets or something referred to in the link supplied in the third post.
just some info for you, the headlight bulb blew on both bikes....if you fart around with the starter button like me, with the clicking starter, best to have the headlight off......
will check around the breakers for a VALEO D6RA75 starter off several citroens and renaults.....thanks for info to all that replied.

 

[MOGGY]

STARTER

Finally got around to opening the duff starter.....there is a round silver cap that fits in the starter housing on your bike and covers the planetary gears.It keeps the grease on these gears from spitting over the winding and the magnets. In my case there wasn't. It had come off and stuck itself on the front of the motor armature. After replacing it back where it was supposed to be ( it is more or less a press fit, not too clever) and using a hot knife to seal the edge of the plastic planetary gear housing over, and completely stripping and cleaning the whole thing, the starter fires on the button every time with a lovely "just cleaned and sorted " noise.
I have been researching this starter and I dont think you will find it on any car. the D6RA55 and D6RA75 Valeo item is listed only for the BMW bike. However other Valeos have brushes, springs, solenoids,housings with magnets etc that are identical to the one on our bikes. I could not find one that will come straight off a car and onto the bmw as the bendix invariably had more or less teeth,the shaft was a different length, or the motor spins the wrong way and the nose cone seems unique. ( The starter on your bike goes counter clockwise).
Anyway heres some Valeo numbers....
594173 solenoid
594531 armature
594127 brushes
594068 plastic lever
594084 repair kit
594129 brush holder
I suspect the Valeo starter for the bmw is originally off an industrial engine, slightly adapted and given a hefty price tag.
If you come across any of the following, these are the Valeo starters with parts closest to the one on your bike that spin the same way.
VALEO D6RA50, 19, 34, 54, 29, but these are prob off industrial motors.
Valeo D6RA5 is off Citroens such as the AX and has the same brushes, housing with magnets, solenoid and brush holder. This is a good bet if one of your magnets has come off.
Dont be afraid to strip yours if you have a prob and are short of cash, you can probably repair it for not much money and a trip to the breakers.