The results are in

[Deleted account 211025001]

I should have put it in Dynamic Pro for you then it just becomes scary !

I thought your orange thing had the potential to be a bit "front end light"

It does, but not with me riding it

Andres

 

[Speedy1959]

I agree with you but ere's what I see:

BMW specifications for 2009 R1200GS
Power: 103.25 HP (75.4 kW)) @ 7500 RPM
Torque: 115.00 Nm (11.7 kgf-m or 84.8 ft.lbs) @ 5750 RPM

Sspeed's Results
BEFORE:
80.9bhp @ 7420 rpm
60.4 ft/lb @ 5885rpm

AFTER:
104bhp @ 7600rpm
84.3 ft/lb @ 5500rpm

So this suggests that the Decat and Remus reduced the power and torque and that hilltop brought it back to normal.
.

Do remember that generally the quoted figures from manufacturers is crankshaft power!!
Thats considerably different that at the wheel..Shaft drives soak up more power than chain and sprockets do !

 

[Bendy toy]

The likely power drop is likely to be a lot less than the usual round number 15% quoted everywhere. The BMW has just 2 gear contacts between crank and back wheel so an engine making 104 at the crank should show as much as 100 at the back wheel.

15% power lost through the transmission would have the gearbox and back axle each losing about 7.5 bhp (5KW - ish). There are no cooling systems and they never get especially hot so losses like that look excessive to say the least. This shows 2% for parallel set gears. Less for epicyclics.
http://www.allengears.com/pdf/epicyclic-revenue-advantage.pdf

This is another view.
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/modp-1005-drivetrain-power-loss/

 

[comberjohn]

Know what you mean about restricting diesels, bendy. Believe it's about insurance groups.
But what would be the point of BMW restricting the power of something like the GS?
Unless it's to make the FD last a bit longer!

 

[179club]

Jaysus the poor fella sspeed got a remap and had some fun. Why are people trying to prove what he say's is wrong. Good luck with better running bike sspeed enjoy it

 

[Bendy toy]

Im sure the figures are correct and have me tempted. The question is why do/did BMW detune these bikes. Surely it wasn't to boost K1200/1300 sales.

Failing FDs and rattling gearboxes get my vote.

 

[Wreford Miles]

Jaysus the poor fella sspeed got a remap and had some fun. Why are people trying to prove what he say's is wrong. Good luck with better running bike sspeed enjoy it

...when a new Hilltop thread is started, it's UKGSER tradition to rip into it

 

[Speedy1959]

Ye pessimists why not confront Geoff and tell him his graphs are fraudulent.
After all you are sure of your facts.........
Aren't you ?
The phrase "money where the mouth is" comes to mind !

 

[Beemerman59]

Ye pessimists why not confront Geoff and tell him his graphs are fraudulent.
After all you are sure of your facts.........
Aren't you ?
The phrase "money where the mouth is" comes to mind !

That's already been done.....over and over and over.

I've had the remap and have the graphs. In the real world my bike is simply better than it was before. Was it worth £350? Yes, without a doubt. Just enjoy your bike for what it is now.

 

[Bendy toy]

The Aprilia Pegas 65 makes 50bhp from one cylinder so its quite reasonable to expect a 1200 twin to manage 100bhp. It seems to me that Geoff releases the power that for some reason BMW choked off with the OEM map.

 

[Beemerman59]

It seems to me that Geoff releases the power that for some reason the Eurocrats choked off with the emissions laws.

Fixed

 

[Bendy toy]

Quote

It seems to me that Geoff releases the power that for some reason the Eurocrats choked off with the emissions laws.​

Or that BMW over reacted to the EU regulations. Aprilia, Ducati and KTM are a lot less fussy

 

[comberjohn]

While the improvements of a hilltop re map are well documented, I'm struggling to accept that simply altering the fueling has increased the power at the rear wheel by 30%. No change of cams, compression ratio or even exhaust system.
Unless there is some kind of restriction in the ECU that no one has noticed in the 12 years since the R1200GS was launched.
I'm afraid that without any evidence of a restriction, I'm sceptical.
That just leaves the accuracy of the dyno charts. I have read a bit about dynos and, from what I gather, it's not an exact science.
The other point is that, as someone who has been involved in a sales environment, putting something down on paper lends it credibility. 'It must be true, it's written down with a graph and everything.'
I'm glad that you have found an improvement in performance but not convinced on those numbers.

 

[Speedy1959]

No change of cams, compression ratio or even exhaust system.

I did say that I had fitted Remus decat headers..
Plus Geoff did say the ignition curve has been altered / advanced.

 

[Bendy toy]

While the improvements of a hilltop re map are well documented, I'm struggling to accept that simply altering the fueling has increased the power at the rear wheel by 30%. No change of cams, compression ratio or even exhaust system.
Unless there is some kind of restriction in the ECU that no one has noticed in the 12 years since the R1200GS was launched.
I'm afraid that without any evidence of a restriction, I'm sceptical.

That just leaves the accuracy of the dyno charts. I have read a bit about dynos and, from what I gather, it's not an exact science.

The other point is that, as someone who has been involved in a sales environment, putting something down on paper lends it credibility. 'It must be true, it's written down with a graph and everything.'
I'm glad that you have found an improvement in performance but not convinced on those numbers.

The tests were all done on the same dyno by the same operator so it's likely any errors are consistent in both before and after engine runs. Hilltop have done a very large number of R1200s with as far as I can find no complaints. That is enough for me to have my bike done by them when the time comes.

I can see the point of the AF-XIED and agree that simply changing the fuelling is unlikely to give the power increase that Hilltop remaps report. It's clear from that Hilltop are doing a lot more than simply optimising the fuelling.

That all said - I fitted my Power Commander V which came off a bike with the same exhaust (etc) spec as mine but has not been dyno tuned on my bike. The performance increase stunned me and I am sure there is more to come (it runs rich). There has to be something very odd about the OEM fuelling map.

 

[Speedy1959]

Well put Bendy.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

While the improvements of a hilltop re map are well documented, I'm struggling to accept that simply altering the fueling has increased the power at the rear wheel by 30%..............

It isn't just the fuelling that is changed.

Whilst no two dynos will read exactly the same there is documented evidence on here of one of the site's members bikes (KTM1190R) being Hilltop'd and then dyno'd a few weeks later on a KTM dealers dyno. The figures achieved on both dynos were almost identical.

Andres

 

[duckspeed]

If the first run on the dyno shows one figure and a subsequent run following some work shows a higher figure surely an improvement has been made?

 

[DrFarkoff]

I see Geoff Responding down below, I just want to mention that what I have posted below here was intended to fully support Geoff and Hilltop for what He/they do!

Its not rocket science really !!!!

IF You run a LEAN 15 : 1 air fuel mixture you do NOT have the explosive material to make a BIG bang! But you do comply with EU regulation on Emissions

With me so Far?

So if you then remap the ECU so that the "Mixture" is at the correct balance (i.e. neither too rich or too lean ) then you will then have a much more powerful explosion

Add to that The Optimisation of the ignition advance curve and you can take the torque and power wherever you want

Mass produced "Units" are NEVER going to be at optimal performance!

Its impossible to make 10,000 engines all exactly the same, there are opportunities for minor variations all over the place

All the AX Fied does is correct said crap fuel air ration "but" at source without reflashing the vehicle ECU

I don;t have the money for either of them so I will make do with my booster plug and hopefully soon the Wunderlich power tune thing I bought last year that I haven't fitted yet!

 

[fizzer]

you can think about things to much you know,if it rides with a bit a bit more go go ,and you are happy job done