Why not a PDA?

[PanEuropean]

Trevor:

Your comments are interesting and enlightening, and it sounds like you have developed an excellent solution for your specific needs.

I think, though, that you are way off base when you write "I pretty much have to disagree with Pan here" in response to the comment of mine that you quoted, which was "If, though, you are like me, riding 30K a year or more, every mile of it in a foreign country, and often cross two or more frontiers in a single day - then it only makes sense to get a high end, purpose specific tool to do the navigation."

Your PDA solution - which I admire and I think is very creative - would not suit me at all, because we are at absolute opposite ends of the spectrum of automotive (motorcycle) use. Please re-read my original post more carefully before you 'disagree' with me. Here are the facts of the matter, culled from your post and mine:

1) I ride internationally - you ride domestically.
2) I ride in countries I don't live in - you ride on your home turf.
3) I stick to paved surfaces - you ride off-road 70% of the time.
4) I want and need autorouting capability - you don't.
5) I need road attribute data to enable discrimination in route creation based on road characteristics (not simply raster or vector displays of topographical data) - you don't.

What you have developed with your PDA/GPS combination, to suit your unique needs, is what is known as a "chartplotter". These are quite common in marine applications. No doubt you have some experience with them on land as well, from your time spent working as a surveyor. Considering that you spend 70% of your time off-road, a chartplotter makes a lot of sense for your application. It is a creative solution for your needs, and from the sound of it, it fully meets your needs, but by no means is it "the most sophisticated, flexible solution available", as you claim. By example, your equipment and configuration does not provide any lookup capability for towns or POI's, nor does it offer any navigation capability beyond image display.

What I use is a combination GPSR, chartplotter, road atlas, navigation database, and navigation management computer that is all rolled up into one piece of kit (the Garmin SP 26xx). Considering that I spend 100% of my time on public road surfaces, that makes the most sense for my application. My comments, taken in their original context, make sense and I stand by them.

Please carefully read my original post to this topic of June 16. I am not suggesting that what you have described is not a good solution for folks with your kind of needs. I am, though, a bit miffed that you have "disagreed" with me, without even carefully reading what I wrote.

I do wish you lots of success with your development of cartography and tracks for PDA based chartplotter solutions. The whole concept of 'chartplotters on land' seems to have been overlooked by the industry, because they are focused more on the automotive (on-road) segment. Lots of folks have PDAs already, and the idea of using public domain chart data, an existing PDA, and a low cost (ideally, used) GPSR to simply establish lat/long and feed that to the PDA chartplotter is a great idea that fills a niche need for off-road enthusiasts.

PanEuropean

 

[Telford]

My 2d worth

Unabashed expression of personal preference follows:

For versatility the PDA would be my suggestion except - for MC applications the mounting / power options are not as mature as the dedicated units.

I run an Ipaq 2210 with Bluetooth GPS, TomTom Navigator for route planning and navigation and I'm just experimenting with Fugawi (as in "where the fugawi") UK OS Maps for raster mapping / off road routes. All available on the one unit (1gb micro drive and 128mb SD card). I've modified a waterproof 'otter box' with a removeable mount on the bars and the gps sits in a smaller otterbox in a pocket or tank bag.

TomTom navigator is (in my opinion) easier to use than the SP3 - but I started out with their RoutePlanner on my old Ipaq so I'm familiar with the interface. It's great to lookup a contact in the Ipaq address book, popup the menu and click "take me there" and it just does it. You can also subscribe to a GPRS road alert service which warns you in real time of congestion, via a bluetooth enabled, gprs equipped mobile phone (in inside jacket pocket).

Proximity alerts and GATSO/TrueVelo databases are available (for a fee).

The main problem is powering the PDA and, separate, gps unit. But I'm working on that one! (PDA gives around 8 hours and GPS 5 hours on batteries). I've not got headphones in my helmet for the voice prompts but they're fine in the car.

Other advantages of the PDA route:

a) buy the PDA from whoever
b) buy the GPS from A.N.Other
c) buy the software that suits your requirements (or combinations of) from wherever.
d) plug em together for a customized solution.

(and spend ages on the toilet reading manuals)

It'll also: (has been said in other posts)

Play MP3s, games, access the internet / email...

Another interesting possibility is the new TomTom GO which has their software built in and an SD slot for plugging in maps. It looks dinky but I bet it ain't waterproof - and it's a dedicated navigation device.

NOTE: this is not an advert for TomTom - I just like their software.

Perhaps a bit more than tuppence worth.

Mark

 

[bgd]

Running 2 GPSs one with near view and the other with far. Now that is a damn good idea. I don't use routing and can see how this would really make life easier.

I can see this could get expensive

 

[Loyd_Davies]

Garmin iQue

I have a Garmin iQue and for my purposes - all on-road, use it in the car and as a Palm PDA for work, on bike in good weather, it's excellent. I had an iPAQ based system initially with bluetooth GPS receiver, but it was unreliable, and as the components came from three different suppliers, very difficult to resolve any problems.

I bought an Otterbox, but you need the deep body kit with the iQue and it is then so enormous that it looks ridiculous. It is however essential if you are going to use the iQue on your bike in very bad weather.

I normally put it in a tank-top map pocket and connect it to my Autocom and it works fine and is visible and the main functions can be operated through the clear plastic cover.

Downsides of the iQue are that you have to do all your route planning on the iQue - you can't transfer routes from Maproute on your PC to the iQue. So route planning with lots of new waypoints is tricky. It's not waterproof so if it rains heavily, it can't stay in the map-pocket.

Upsides compared to a dedicated unit are that it's a full function Palm - you can keep all of your contacts, diary etc on the iQue, associate Waypoints and it will navigate to their location.

But it is relatively cheap, very reliable and well made, and adequate for all but the most demanding trips.

 

[(RIP) Geriatric Germ]

I have recently purchased an IQUE 3600 and only used it in the car so far (great kit) as I am looking to suss out Otter boxes etc to decide which is best for the Speedo Ram Mount of Migsel, and of course the transmission of the dulcet tones to my ear drum via my Hearing aid on 'T' setting. Any help with experience/and or tips on this is more than welcome.

 

[Trevor S]

Please re-read my original post more carefully before you 'disagree' with me. Here are the facts of the matter, culled from your post and mine:

1) I ride internationally - you ride domestically.

A PDA would offer a better solution in this regard. Try riding in countries where Garmin has no mapping as well as areas where there is little or useless mapping eg where I ride.

2) I ride in countries I don't live in - you ride on your home turf.

Indeed, albeit Aus is a big country, so I ride VAST distances. Aus is similar to continential USA in size with the population of Nor Cal.

3) I stick to paved surfaces - you ride off-road 70% of the time.

A PDA would offer a better solution here IMO and you're missing the best riding sticking to paved surfaces but you don't have the problems of everything falling to pieces from the rough conditions

4) I want and need autorouting capability - you don't.

Indeed I don't need them but a PDA can do autorouting, this is not a feature only GARMINs can do.

5) I need road attribute data to enable discrimination in route creation based on road characteristics (not simply raster or vector displays of topographical data) - you don't.

Indeed I don't need it but a PDA can do this.

What you have developed with your PDA/GPS combination, to suit your unique needs, is what is known as a "chartplotter".

I don't think my needs are unique, I would suggest yours are, that aside, my setup isn't. I would suggest my set up is much like a computer and printer, you can customise it with software and features as you see fit. I would suggest your solution is like a typewriter both can do the job, one solution offers more functionality.

It is a creative solution for your needs, and from the sound of it, it fully meets your needs, but by no means is it "the most sophisticated, flexible solution available", as you claim.

I disgaree. Your comparing a "simple" GPS to a computer.

By example, your equipment and configuration does not provide any lookup capability for towns or POI's,

Yes it does, any amount of PDA software does let alone my GPS (Meridian)

nor does it offer any navigation capability beyond image display.

I don't understand what you are getting at here ?

Remember I'm not afflicted with a "simple" mapping GPS here but basically a hand held computer encumbered with the flexability that entails.

What I use is a combination GPSR, chartplotter, road atlas, navigation database, and navigation management computer that is all rolled up into one piece of kit (the Garmin SP 26xx).

As do I, but I also have a music player, games machines, mileage log, maintence log, organiser, address book, diary and star chart (nothing much else to do when camped out looking at the stars wondering what the hell their names are ) What I am saying is a PDA solution can do everything you can do and it can do more. I am not tied down to a single front end

Considering that I spend 100% of my time on public road surfaces, that makes the most sense for my application.

I disagree, which was the point of my entire post, it does make sense for you not yoru application. As an aside, 98% of the roads I travel are public roads, just not sealed.

My comments, taken in their original context, make sense and I stand by them.

Thats cool, I just disagree with them no big deal. IMO you use a closed, inflexible, properitary system That it works for you and others is excellent

Please carefully read my original post to this topic of June 16. I am not suggesting that what you have described is not a good solution for folks with your kind of needs. I am, though, a bit miffed that you have "disagreed" with me, without even carefully reading what I wrote.

I did read it carefully you make some excellent points and I disagree with your conclusion. I am sorry you are miffed, that's not my intention, I am not miffed you disagree with me I was simpily providing healthy debate, I disgreed with your conclusion and pointed out why. I added the Surveyor bit as I know your navigational experience is much better then mine (who the hell needs to know how to do a star shot when you have a GPS) though I do have some technical background BUT my solution does introduce a degree of clompexity that might not suit everyone. My main point of contention was you intimating that the Garmin is the best solution, it isn't, it's a simple solution and I pointed out why.

As an aside, it looks like the 2610 is a great bit of gear and I am even considering one, it's great to see the inclusion of a CF slot, if I had one I would still have a PDA hooked up to it ,assuming you can ? I would prefer the 276 but a lack of non properitary storage means I can't break my rules and get one

 

[BurnieM]

Interesting, I have disagreed with both Pan and Trevor on what the ideal solution for motorcycling navigation is.
(I use a GPSmap 276C with City Navigator Australia and Metroguide Australia loaded).

It just shows that you need to analyse your needs, the equipment available, as well as your own knowledge and preferred method of use before selecting equipment.

There is no one size fits all (even for the same use).
Unfortunately there is a learning curve and for your first GPSr you will probably end up relying on others options.

 

[simonm]

............

It just shows that you need to analyse your needs, the equipment available, as well as your own knowledge and preferred method of use before selecting equipment.

There is no one size fits all (even for the same use).
Unfortunately there is a learning curve and for your first GPSr you will probably end up relying on others options.

Excellent point here Burnie - I think Pan Euro said the same thing in another thread.. "do your due diligence"

I've been lurking on the GPS threads for a while, trying to take it all in, and I think a certain level of well argued disagreement is a very useful thing. Thanks gents

 

[Kropotkin]

Interesting thread.

Here's what I did, 'cos I was suffering the same dilemma.

Because I needed some background before I pulled out a serious wad of cash, I made a list of what I wanted:

1. Voice navigation. An absolute necessity for me, 'cos I prefer to be looking at the road ahead, rather than maps / screens.

2. The ability to plan an entertaining route.

3. Lots of memory, for carrying large maps.

4. Cheap. This was an experiment, and shelling out large sums of spondulicks on what my wife would refer to as a "toy" was not an option.

So, taking all of the above into account, I bought a second hand PDA (IPaq 3630) with TomTom navigator, and a wired GPS receiver.

I keep the PDA and GPS mouse in my tank bag, although I am in the process of trying to fabricate my own waterproof case (cheaper than an otterbox), and plug the PDA directly into the music input on the Autocom intercom, which works a treat.

As mentioned, my wife thought this was a bit of a toy, until the very first time we set off on a trip using the GPS. After being told that we had to "turn left after 100 metres", she was totally convinced. It really is much better being able to concentrate on the road.

There are of course a number of downsides:

My current solution has a bunch of wires going all over the shop. Although once I have wired the autocom onto the bike, and have a mount for the PDA, things should improve, if only slightly.

TomTom is aimed primarily at car drivers, and it shows. It will mostly attempt to take you via the most major roads available, which you don't want on a bike. You can use the "Itinerary" option to set out a route, but you can only use about 15 waypoints before TomTom gets its knickers in a twist. You can also, apparently, fiddle with the speed settings for Motorways, but this can upset TomTom as well, and can cause seriously awful route calculation times.

TomTom hates it when you leave the road. In fact, you can't even store the location of a point off road, it simply stores the nearest location on the road leading to that point.

I can't use my current solution off the bike (for walking, for example), as the GPS receiver needs power. Which is a minor inconvenience.

The PDA gets VERY hot in the tankbag map section on a sunny day, and can seize up. Which can be a bit disconcerting.

I am a bit worried about the long term ruggedness of the PDA. It's not really built to deal with the effects of vibration on a motorcycle, and it is definitely not waterproof.

All in all, I am rather happy with my solution, with the exception of all the bloody wires going everywhere. If I had an unlimited amount of cash, I would like a Garmin 276C, and pay Garmin to build me a 1GB memory stick (I'm sure someone must have tried this, it can't be that hard). Otherwise, I would probably go for a 2610 with a vast CF card, and a Perfect Pilot holder: Perfect Pilot.

I think I would go for a Garmin unit, mostly because of the robustness of the Garmin units. But their proprietary memory modules do REALLY annoy me, and the 3D view in TomTom is excellent.

I'm sure I'll think of about a million more things after I press Submit, but I'll add them as I think of them.

David

 

[sven]

TomTom is aimed primarily at car drivers, and it shows. It will mostly attempt to take you via the most major roads available, which you don't want on a bike. You can use the "Itinerary" option to set out a route, but you can only use about 15 waypoints before TomTom gets its knickers in a twist. You can also, apparently, fiddle with the speed settings for Motorways, but this can upset TomTom as well, and can cause seriously awful route calculation times.

The PDA gets VERY hot in the tankbag map section on a sunny day, and can seize up. Which can be a bit disconcerting..

DON'T put the PDA in the tankbag map pocket - I had a GPS mouse cook itself in there

I now use self-adhesive velcro to stick the mouse to my dashboard (on a VFR800) and I neatly route the wires along the front of my Bagster tankbag with the excess bundled inside.

By setting the motorway speed on TT3 to around 10mph less than the A-road speed, the routing works really well e.g. it'll take me from home, up the A65, A6, A7 and A93 to Braemar using 5 or 6 waypoints and only touch the motorway to bypass Penrith, Carlisle and Edinburgh to Perth.

The new CoPilot 5 programme looks very interesting though (I also have CoPilot 4). It combines the advantages of TT3 (3-D maps basically) and CoPilot 4 (borderless mappind,desktop route planner programme, unlimited waypoints, far more POI's). It just lacks the compatibility with CheckPOInt for adding speed cameras.

www.alk.eu.com

 

[(RIP) Geriatric Germ]

Re: Garmin iQue

I have a Garmin iQue and for my purposes - all on-road, use it in the car and as a Palm PDA for work, on bike in good weather, it's excellent.

Downsides of the iQue are that you have to do all your route planning on the iQue - you can't transfer routes from Maproute on your PC to the iQue. So route planning with lots of new waypoints is tricky. It's not waterproof so if it rains heavily, it can't stay in the map-pocket.

Upsides compared to a dedicated unit are that it's a full function Palm - you can keep all of your contacts, diary etc on the iQue, associate Waypoints and it will navigate to their location.

But it is relatively cheap, very reliable and well made, and adequate for all but the most demanding trips.

I normally put it in a tank-top map pocket and connect it to my Autocom and it works fine and is visible and the main functions can be operated through the clear plastic cover.

Hello lloyd, could you help me with details of how you connected your IQUE (I have the 3600) to your Autocom and where you bought the leads to power and transmit voice please.

 

[Gilson]

I think I'm going to cry...

I thought I had it....no I really did...then I read this post. I only want to be able to find my way primarily around London, then the UK and seldomly North Europe...(maybe once a year)

My satellites have been lost....

 

[Patch]

1) I ride internationally - you ride domestically.
2) I ride in countries I don't live in - you ride on your home turf.
3) I stick to paved surfaces - you ride off-road 70% of the time.
4) I want and need autorouting capability - you don't.
5) I need road attribute data to enable discrimination in route creation based on road characteristics (not simply raster or vector displays of topographical data) - you don't.

And a PDA with TomTom provides all of this for about half the price and further allows the inclusion of GPS based speed camera detection and Traffic hold up information in a unit which will then allow you to browse this forum whilst you are away.

I get the impression that this forum has a lot of people here who the "badge" is a most important accessory.

I use a PDA, it is protected by an Otterbox 3600, I do 40,000 miles a year and use the GPS daily in all weathers in several countries.

 

[Kropotkin]

And a PDA with TomTom provides all of this for about half the price and further allows the inclusion of GPS based speed camera detection and Traffic hold up information in a unit which will then allow you to browse this forum whilst you are away.

I get the impression that this forum has a lot of people here who the "badge" is a most important accessory.

I use a PDA, it is protected by an Otterbox 3600, I do 40,000 miles a year and use the GPS daily in all weathers in several countries.

I too own a PDA, and have assembled a system for less than half the price of a comparable Garmin system. You are undoubtedly right to suspect that there are the odd couple of badge freaks amongst GSers. It is, after all, a BMW, and for some poor misguided fools, that means something.

However, as I indicated previously, there are areas where a dedicated GPS unit is superior to a PDA. One would be ruggedness, another would be simplicity. PDAs tend to be less rugged than a dedicated GPS (they were designed as businesspeople's toys), and, as they have more features, also have more points of failure.
The components for a PDA system also have to be selected carefully. I have a Leadtek wired mouse, which is a pain, frankly, as I have way too many wires going in and out of places. I wish I had bought a Navman GPS jacket now, but I've already spent the cash. This would save a lot of wires.

But the thing which annoys me most, at least about TomTom, is the fact that you have to stop and swap maps whenever you cross a border. And you cannot mix and match the basemap with detailed map sections. Garmin certainly does this better.

 

[mikeh501]

I have a Nav2 which I ordered with the bike including an autocom... basically everything needed.

Why?

Well I had a GPS V previously and allthough a good unit, I out grew it pretty fast - actually after its first euro trip. Problems were lack of memory and slow processing.

I looked at the PDA option, and what puts me off is that they are just not suited to motorcycle application - they are only just viable in the car.

* I want something waterproof, and without a huge box sitting on my bars which frankly look crap.

* I want something which doesn't look out of place on the bike and which I'm going to be worrying about damaging.

* I want something which can be put on/off the bike in seconds - no mass of wiring.

And thats without possible issues around software / hardware problems / batteries etc etc. I feel that the PDA solution has a lot of merit but you have to be willing to work around its shortcomings in terms of suitability. That said, I do think the PDA systems will catch up and pass the dedicated unit systems pretty quickly - maybe another few years, just because they are PC based.

Perhaps Garmin should bring out a dedicated GPSR which runs windows CE with all the features and benefits of a dedicated unit....

Also, finally I can think of far better ways to spend an evening than playing solitairre on a PDA, after I reached my destination. Who cares?

 

[Patch]

I
But the thing which annoys me most, at least about TomTom, is the fact that you have to stop and swap maps whenever you cross a border.

Are you not using the major roads of Europe map for that?

 

[Kropotkin]

Are you not using the major roads of Europe map for that?

No, cos I also want petrol stations and hotels. This was specifically on holiday, when we were travelling through France to Spain. And you can't have POI and MRE.

 

[Tommac]

I have tried both PDA/GPS and the Garmin 2610.

I used a bluetooth PDA to link to an Emtac GPS. I wired the PDA into the powersocket (a must for any long journey) and connected the audio to my Autocom. Then I used TomTom software. The PDA was put in an Aquapak and the whole thing mounted on a RAM mount

Result. Everything worked great except that the Bluetooth connection would occasionally and randomly drop, always at a strange junction or somewhere I really needed. it. Then it took a bit of fiddling to re-establish the relationship so I had to stop. TomTom software is very good but a bit pricy. The 3D view is much more intuitive than the Garmin as well.

I eventually got hacked off with the bluetooth problems although the latest version of Pocket PC makes things a bit better.

So I bought a Garmin 2610 and am delighted with it. It is just that bit faster and more reliable. You only need to connect one plug for both power and audio so it is easier to remove from the bike.

I think both are viable and it probably depends how much you want a PDA for other things. That will definitely sway your decision but I thing that most people will be happy with either.

Tommac

 

[Kropotkin]

I have only one major gripe with the 2610, and that is that you can't use it off the bike. When on multi-day trips, I usually plan the next day's route in the hotel room at night, then enter it into the PDA. But because the 2610 doesn't have batteries, you can't do this. Does anyone have a solution for this problem?

 

[mikeh501]

I have only one major gripe with the 2610, and that is that you can't use it off the bike. When on multi-day trips, I usually plan the next day's route in the hotel room at night, then enter it into the PDA. But because the 2610 doesn't have batteries, you can't do this. Does anyone have a solution for this problem?

Apparently BMW will sell you a battery pack, but its nearly as big as the 2610 itself

TBH, the power adapter is v.small and thats what I will be taking.