WP suspension trouble shooting guide

[Giles]

This is a straight copy and paste from ADV Rider ....




Maybe this is any help:

http://www.wpsuspension.co.uk/setup.php

TROUBLE SHOOTING OVERVIEW

REAR SUSPENSION

Complaint
too little negative suspension travel
motorcycle shocks through the steering in ruts or when accelerating
shock absorber appears immobile
uncomfortable
overloading on front forks when travelling downhill or braking
Cause
spring pre load too high
Solution
reduce spring pre load
fit a softer spring if necessary
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Complaint
motorcycle dips too deeply on suspension
too much negative suspension travel (“sag”)
uncomfortable
tendency to shocking
motorcycle wanders on uneven surfaces
Cause
spring pre load too low
Solution
increase spring pre load
fit a harder spring (or springs)
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Complaint
very uncomfortable
rear wheel tends to bounce in fast bends especially when accelerating
rear wheel bounces over uneven surfaces
Cause
compression camping too hard
Solution
adjust damping to softer level
have the shock absorber adjusted internally
have worn shock absorbers repaired or replaced
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Complaint
Rear suspension bottoms out
motorcycle and rider subject to hard bumps
Noticeable movements in the frame, particularly when accelerating out of bends
Cause
compression damping too soft
Solution
set compression damping harder
have the shock absorber adjusted internally
have worn shock absorbers repaired or replaced
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Complaint
motorcycle suspension extremely sluggish
rear wheel unable to cope well with uneven surfaces
tendency to bounce on bumpy surfaces
uncomfortable
tendency to snake in ruts
Cause
rebound damping too hard
Solution
decrease the rebound damping
possibly increase spring pre-load
replace shock absorber
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Complaint
motorcycle suspension extremely lively
constant movement in the rear suspension
rear wheel has tendency to bounce / wobble
Cause
rebound damping (rebound) too soft
Solution
increase the rebound damping
reduce the spring pretension if necessary
have worn shock absorbers repaired or replaced
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FRONT SUSPENSION
Complaint
front forks sluggish/nearly immobile
handlebars “jump” in your hand when accelerating and crossing ruts
uncomfortable
front wheel bounces / chatters on poor road surfaces
Cause
spring pre load too high
spring too hard
air chamber too small
Solution
reduce spring pre load
fit softer springs or progressive springs with a lighter initial strength
increase air chamber (reduce oil level in front fork)
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Complaint
motorcycle sags to deeply on the springs
too much negative suspension travel
suspension occasionally bottoms out
front forks shake when braking and travelling downhill
Cause
spring pre load too low
springs too soft
air chamber too large
Solution
increase spring pre load
fit stiffer springs or progressive front fork springs with a heavier initial strength
reduce air chamber (increase oil level in front fork)
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Complaint
front forks sluggish/nearly immobile
shocks in the steering when accelerating
front wheel chatters when braking hard
Cause
ingoing (compression) damping too hard
Solution
reduce the ingoing (compression) damping
possibly use lower viscosity fork oil
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Complaint
front forks shock when braking and on uneven road surfaces
and dips rapidly when braking
Cause
ingoing (compression) damping too soft
Solution
increase the ingoing (compression) damping
possibly use higher viscosity fork oil
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Complaint
front forks spring back slowly
uncomfortable
front wheel unable to cope with uneven surfaces
indirect steering behaviour
Cause
outgoing (rebound) damping too hard
Solution
reduce the outgoing (rebound) damping
possibly use a lower viscosity fork oil
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Complaint
front end is lively
bouncing and shocking on uneven surfaces
front forks spring back too quickly
Cause
outgoing (rebound) damping too soft
Solution
increase the outgoing (rebound) damping
possibly use a higher viscosity fork oil
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Complaint
front forks shock
front wheel shudders
not enough progressive hardening of the spring towards the end of travel
Cause
air chamber too large
Solution
increase the oil level in small steps of 5 to 10 mm
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Complaint
forks hard
tendency to shock in the steering
front wheel bounces when braking due to hydraulic stop blocking
uncomfortable
Cause
air chamber too small
Solution
decrease the oil level in small steps of 5 to 10 mm
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Your step to extra safety and comfort
You have completed your test drive. In the most favourable case, thanks to the adjustments you have made to the shock absorbers and front forks you will have been able to achieve good results. If after making your test drive and adjustments you are still not satisfied with the result there are usually three main reasons for this:

1. Your shock absorbers and front forks are of poor quality.
2. The components in your shock absorbers and front forks are worn.
3. Your shock absorbers and front forks cannot be correctly adjusted.

A fundamental solution for your problem could lie in simply replacing your shock absorbers and front forks with a set of shock absorbers and front forks (or front fork springs) of superior quality, with adjustment options that enable you to adjust them fully to your personal preferences.

WP Suspension have complete shock absorbers for every motorcycle. If you already own WP shock absorbers and front forks, you have all the advantages of a maintenance friendly product, for which it is not always necessary to replace complete shock absorbers. As a result of the components in the shock absorber being replaceable you can solve your problem for less cost.
An extra advantage of WP shock absorbers is that less burden is placed on the environment as result of their long durability.
For front forks from other manufacturers you can use the excellent replacement springs manufactured by WP. We will be able to explain to you in detail which components have to be replaced in order to solve your problem.

By choosing the quality and the customising options of WP products, you are choosing for optimum safety and comfort.

Now get down to work!
You have now completed your test ride, and you have taken exact note of your motorcycle's behaviour. Now you can get down to work dealing with the problems. As long as you understand that adjusting the suspension and shock-absorption is very precise work. If, when it comes to the settings, you are not one hundred percent sure about your capacities, leave the job to the professionals, but with this document as a guide, you should in principle be able to achieve the optimum settings, (that is if adjustments are possible at all, because with certain types of shock-absorbers, there could be no adjustment possibilities, whilst on some other motorcycles, only the pre-load and rear suspension can be adjusted).

Let us assume now that you have readjusted your shock absorbers and, on your test ride, the results are still not acceptable. What can you do then ...? Possibly your existing suspension elements are worn out or are simply of poor quality.

Sometimes, replacing the suspension elements is the only possible solution. This may be extremely far-reaching, for example, completely replacing the front forks with new forks of a superior quality, but fortunately, spectacular results can also be achieved for a much lesser expense. An excellent alternative, for example, is to fit WP ProLine front fork replacement springs. Contact us about this most economic option. If the rear shock absorber (or both rear shock absorbers is (or are) working poorly, the only possible solution is to fit (a) new unit(s). If you are not by nature a “do-it-your-self” kind of person, we would recommend leaving this task to a specialist.

 

[corsicandreamer]

Thank you Giles a very useful post.

 

[Losttheplot]

And if the above comments about immobile or very harsh forks don't resolve the problem, replace the seals with new SKF friction free seals

 

[Giles]

Soooooo ....

I think we're finally getting there

Suspension is very much a dark art and I have no qualms in announcing my relative ignorance. I know what I feel, but I can't always diagnose what the problem is

My bike was just too harsh over poor surfaces, so I've popped into Tagg racing near me and they've taken a quick look at static sag and all that malarkey. First and immediate impressions were ... my preload was way too soft, so the feedback was that my bike was feeling harsh because the rear shock wasn't really doing what it should be doing because it was outside of it's sort of working range if you like. It's a sort of easy mistake to make (if yer pretty clueless ), wind off the spring thinking it should soften it up, but actually, you stop the spring from 'working', because you make it too soft. (And then it feels too harsh).

Having sorted out the basics over lunch, I've spent the afternoon bummimg up and down the local gnarly b roads with tools and spanners, stopping every ten mins or so for a tweek.

Sorted suspension is worth tens of BHP in my opinion and what a difference it makes to the rideability of the bike. Last summer I went to France with Nutty, Wapping and Bouncer for a two day hoon, just after I'd had my clocks nicked from the GS. The bike was 'stuck' in two up plus luggage, and also stuck on its firm damping settings. To say it was unridable would of course be an exaggeration, but it virtually was! Bouncing and chattering all over the road, you just couldn't transfer throttle into drive, there was simply no soft pliable contact with the tarmac. Sounds a load of pony??!? The difference today between before and after, was ... well it's huge! And on familiar roads, knowing individual bends, awkward little cambers and ripples, knowing where you can get stuck off the gas if you're not balanced and settled on corner entry .... it's the perfect environment to analyse and make changes. Yeah yeah ... I know it's not about 'how fast' ... etc, but ultimately that's the bench mark ... sort the suspension out and suddenly you're absolutely flying along, because the bike is now soaking stuff up, is calm and unflustered, and allowing you (ktm begging you !!) to give it more.


At 12 1/2 stone ... here's where I'm at. (And may just soften it off a tiny bit more ... we'll see .... ).

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

There are some very big differences there, as well as more subtle 'tweaks' aren't there.

As I think I mentioned in another thread I've decided to take my bike to K-Tech who are near me and let them set it up for me. I'm doing it that way as much because I want to learn from them what's involved and hopefully understand better the subtleties of suspension set up (such as what you were saying about preload Giles, something that is actually counter intuitive (well, it is to me)).

I hope to do it in the next two to three weeks. We're similar a similar weight so I'll let you have the settings and see how they compare. In the mean time I'm gonna try your settings and see how I find them

Andres

 

[Giles]

STOP PRESS .....


It's all changed !!

I've been out all afternoon, spanking around the same bit of road, stop adjust ... spank ... stop ... adjust etc etc ...

I then put the whole lot back to standard (apart from the preload in both rear shock and front forks), and tried again. Bloody hell ... way too hard !! (But confident not to touch the actual preload on both forks and rear shock - they seem good for my weight).

So I wound off the compression and rebound on the rear (bit by bit) and have tried to keep them relatively equal. I'm now at the softest settings for both (low speed compression I haven't really touched) and it feels pretty good there.

I've knocked of the comp and rebound on the forks (from standard) by about three clicks each I think (can't remember - I'll have to have a look at the white board ..).

I like the idea of having good quality suspension that I can manually adjust, what is slightly frustrating though ... is that if I set it up how I seem to like it when i'm having a play, it then doesn't feel as good when I bimble. (So this afternoon, I had a hoon, then pottered about taking photos - it felt great hooning, but ummmmmm ... not quite right pottering ).

What's important .... like really important ... is that I don't get obsessed about it and just get the best compromise I can and be happy with that.

I'm confident 80% of it is a head game ...

Don't forget that one mans meat is another mans poison. My playground is back B roads, and not fast smooth A roads. (This sort of thing)






So I'm looking for quite a soft set up ... (and a bit of a minger off the hump ... )

 

[halfpint]

You will spend your whole life chasing the perfect set up! Ring the council and get them to set the roads up for you. Smooth tarmac and flowing bends!!!

 

[Giles]

Ha ha ... But I like the gnarly stuff.

Hope the WR is still going strong .. I regret selling it ..

 

[Timolgra]

And if the above comments about immobile or very harsh forks don't resolve the problem, replace the seals with new SKF friction free seals

Or think about how you tighten the front axle.
Do you?

A. Just tighten it up.

B. Bounce the forks to align them.... but how much and do you use the front brake when bouncing them.

C. Remove the top cap to collapse the forks before tightening them to account for the change in fork geometry when compressed.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

Ooooooh a quiz - I love quizes

Well, if I'm just taking the front wheel out and back in I just tighten the axle up.

If I've twisted the forks or want to check alingment I loosen off the triple clamps a bit, loosen off the axle and pich bolts a bit and give a gentle pump/wiggle, tighten up the axle and pump/wiggle again and then tighten up the triple clamps.

Do I get an apple or 10 extra strokes from the discipline master Sir?

Andres

 

[Giles]

I think your prize will be 10 fag buts and half a can of Special Brew ...

 

[Timolgra]

Ooooooh a quiz - I love quizes

Well, if I'm just taking the front wheel out and back in I just tighten the axle up.

If I've twisted the forks or want to check alingment I loosen off the triple clamps a bit, loosen off the axle and pich bolts a bit and give a gentle pump/wiggle, tighten up the axle and pump/wiggle again and then tighten up the triple clamps.

Do I get an apple or 10 extra strokes from the discipline master Sir?

Andres

Ha it was a quiz, but you may want to question premature fork bushing wear and why?

I'd give you an apple as generally that's what I do ......... of course I may be doing it wrong ......

 

[corsicandreamer]

This also is lifted from Adv-rider, and a little in depth for me but interesting at the same time.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031215

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

This also is lifted from Adv-rider, and a little in depth for me but interesting at the same time.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031215

When I first looked at that my brain started to melt, however, if I understand it correctly he hasn't actually modified the damping shims/stacks yet, all he's done is increase the forks spring rate to compensate for his Merkin 106kg body weight

Andres

 

[Giles]

Well I'm not taking mine apart that's for sure ....

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

Just back from Letting somebody who knows what they are doing fiddle with my suspension - I'm suitably impressed
I'll post up the details later.......

Andres

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

........so here we go, settings are for a 2014 1190 Adventure 'R'

I had the afternoon off and made my way over to K-Tech (near Donington Track). It was a lovely day and the roads were cold but dry. I was purposefuly playing with the bike on the way there in an attempt to help me describe to the guys what it was I felt the bike was doing and what it was I wanted.

My prognosis was a bike that could very slightly wallow at high speed on smooth sweepers (not enough to upset but it was there) and what could be a choppy ride on gnarly back roads when pushing on.

What I asked for was a bike that let me feel the bumps but not chop around so much when hooning on B roads (the majority of my riding is Derbyshire back roads, rarely over the national speed limit and constantly accelerating / braking / turning ) along with a more composed ride at speed.

What I've got is, well, what I asked for

At speed the bike just seems to float. I can feel exactly what's going on and yet the bike feels as planted as anything and very confidence inspiring. It feels luxurious yet totally in touch with what's going on. This was the biggest difference and made for a very quick ride home with me feeling far more in control than I would have done before.
On rough, bumpy roads, I can still feel every bump, rut and pot hole but the bike settles immediately, no skitting or chopping about. Again, a lot more control and feel. Lovely.

If I'm honest I was hoping the back road riding might get as smooth as a telelever GS or my Husky with it's SM wheels. It hasn't but it has got more control over that kinda surface. Maybe telelever smoothness is too much too ask or maybe I can still dial it in a bit?

The whole process took 30 mins max.
Sag was measured and left how I had it set (standard preload up front and more on the back) which had me chuffed that I got that bit right Then, by some sort of magic the guy just pumped both ends, watched what they did, adjusted the damping and repeated. He then asked me to go for a good ride and come back and see what I thought. I came back after a 20 minute ride and found it so spot on that we left the settings where he'd put them. The settings were quite different to what I'd set through trial and error...............
He did say for me to get used to the bike and then have a go at tweaking but that he was very happy with the base setting's he'd dialled in. It's the first 1190 he'd done and he was impressed with the quality of the suspension.

Oh, and he reckoned for two up and luggage there was no need to touch the damping, just wind up compression to keep the bike sat the same.

Here's the settings and I reckon you'll be surprised that some have ended up nearer 'comfort' than 'sport' - I was!



Andres

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

I sould have added that I weigh 85kg (without my bike gear on)

Andres

 

[Giles]

Our rear shock is almost identical ! I have a stiffer front fork though. Il try your fork settings ..!

 

[Giles]

Mine is still not quite right, and I want to spend some more time having a play on familiar roads with my tools.

What's interesting, is that I went out wither her indoors the other day having not been on the bike for over a week (and the last time I had, had been suspension tweaking), rode off and immediately thought ... 'Ooooo this is just lovely - it's floating over everything'. And it was ... until wifey got off and I had a blat on my own! Not bad, but still just a bit jarry over the lumps and bumps compared to the beautiful float two up!

So if I can get my head around that and just work out how to replicate the two up, to one up (that might be as simple as a tweak of the pre-load), I'll be a happy man ..