XT ISSUES WITH ROUTES

Nope it did absolutely fine. I still have the wiring gubbins attached to the GS. I have the ability now to convert my own OSM maps. So it may yet get another outing or two. Certainly has a lot of functionality missing in later units. I used it extensively in Norway France Spain and the US. Expensive at Christmas 2004 at £500 with a 256mb CF card but used it exclusively until 2015/16 albeit with an upgrade to two 2gb cf cards. Followed routes made in mapsource and Basecamp perfectly. :)

Glad to hear it
2610 is an awesome sat nav
 
I think it may be something to do with the phone connection and the units (in my opinion poor) ability to route around traffic. If this worked well faster, roads I suppose makes sense. The older units I suspect when you chose faster route looked at all the road options between the start of the point to point route to the end and calculated shortest distance shortest time based on the speeds assigned by the unit to the roads avaliable. (these units obviously had no clue what the traffic was doing). It mostly worked well. And in the example above its interesting to note that google maps chose roughly the same route as the old garmins and google maps can account for traffic. The old 2610 was more flexible than current units in that before it calculated a route it give you the option of faster time, shorter distance off road!! or custom. Custom allowed you to mess with the sliders representing road types and if you wanted you could avoid minor roads altogether see photo above. As a point of interest you can adjust road type speeds in the Profiles section of Basecamp. As i say I'll persist with the XT but as regards navigation often feel its fighting me rather than helping. I hope that Garmin sort some of the issues but with a new unit coming out my hopes may be misplaced :) Im off to the Picos for 10 days in September. I'm considering wiring my Honda for the 340/390. For two reasons. The XT can be a routing faff with Basecamp routes and if I have the routes created in Basecamp loaded on both units then a degree of redundancy is built in if a unit suffers a mishap. I initially bought the XT thinking I could use Explore for creating routes instead of Basecamp and ditch Windows permanently for Linux. Alas Explore is a whole other can of worms :D
I have never used Basecamp, I'm a MRA user and I have not had many issues, but that is probably more to do with me not deviating from the route and also having the track displayed.
 
I know a lot of people don't like basecamp and it can be particularly problematical for Mac users I know. But I made the move from Mapsource a number of years ago. Its a very powerful routing an scheduling tool. Because I use it so frequently I can rubber band routes fairly quickly and it has lots of useful features. It used to have even more when it was directly linked to google earth! I've started to play with the free version of MRA recently and it looks promising. I thought that explore might have been an online replacement for Basecamp.......but it is not :D
 
I am a member of the zumo forums and am well aware of the RUT issue and the ways to get around the issue. But that issues has nothing to do with the device routing differently because of road closures. The RUT is to do with missing waypoints and trying to take u back. If u also have a track displayed, you can ignore the routing and get back on track. So I think it is very fair, every issue is not to do with RUT.
The RUT has nothing to do with missing waypoints

Its when you transfer a route to the XT and you go off that planned route and it tries to get you back on it

After a while it will get stuck in trying to divert you back to the point of where you came off the route even if you are at a closer point to re enter the route and not even missed a via or shaping point

The XT fails to recalculate correctly
 
The RUT has nothing to do with missing waypoints

Its when you transfer a route to the XT and you go off that planned route and it tries to get you back on it

After a while it will get stuck in trying to divert you back to the point of where you came off the route even if you are at a closer point to re enter the route and not even missed a via or shaping point

The XT fails to recalculate correctly
It is to do with waypoints and shaping points, because that is where its next reference is. It won't get you back on a route to a random point, it will get you back to the next point it recognises, which will be a shaping point or waypoint. That is why you either have to stop the route and start again, using a joining point further up the route, or follow a track or display both and route yourself back onto the route. Yes there is an issue with the unit and RUT, but if you know how to get around the issue you can. As for fastest route, we all know it picks fastest roads so again work around it and pick shortest route. The XT for me is still streets ahead of th eNav VI and all the issues I had with ghosting etc. I know the limitations and work to them, simples. The other way to stop the RUT issue is to switch off recalculation, then if you deviate from the route the xt does nothing, you can still see your route and you can navigate yourself back onto the route/track and once you get back on the route, directions start again. Yes another work around :)
 
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It is to do with waypoints and shaping points, because that is where its next reference is. It won't get you back on a route to a random point, it will get you back to the next point it recognises, which will be a shaping point or waypoint. That is why you either have to stop the route and start again, using a joining point further up the route, or follow a track or display both and route yourself back onto the route. Yes there is an issue with the unit and RUT, but if you know how to get around the issue you can. As for fastest route, we all know it picks fastest roads so again work around it and pick shortest route. The XT for me is still streets ahead of th eNav VI and all the issues I had with ghosting etc. I know the limitations and work to them, simples. The other way to stop the RUT issue is to switch off recalculation, then if you deviate from the route the xt does nothing, you can still see your route and you can navigate yourself back onto the route/track and once you get back on the route, directions start again. Yes another work around :)

No its not!

The RUT problem is when you deviate off route and it tries to take you back to where you deviated from the route

I have done it many times where there is no waypoints or shaping points in a section of route and I have gone off route going my own way rather than follow the route

after a few missed turns it will contantly try to take you back to where you came off the route even if you are within a few hundred metres of the route it still tries to take you back

there is a bit I purposefully miss around Scunthorpe everytime I go that way and I will put a waypoint/shaping point before Scunthorpe and the next one is miles away near Gainsbourough. My Route App wants me to go around Scunthorpe as does the XT I go a different way and it tries to take me back the same way until I am withing a few hundred metres of the route! even though I get closer and closer to a point where I would be back on route it gets stuck in the RUT of trying to take me back evn though there is no waypoints/shaping points in there

FrankB's program or hex modification on zumouserforums totally stops that and it recalculates to take you to the next waypoint/shaping point
 
There's some mis-information in the posts that I'd like to correct if I may. It's to do with the weird routing behaviour that happens with the XT under certain cirumstances.
It often manifests itself as repeatedly asking you to turn back - seemingly to a point where you left the magenta line. It also results in the active track log being fragemented into very short sections.

Because of the the U turn demands, I coined the term RUT - as in 'being stuck in a rut', and 'Repeated U Turn' behaviour.

As my tests continued I was able to pin down the nature of the behaviour and found out exactly when it occured, and crucially observed that it only happened with routes transferred to the XT from outside. It didn't happen to routes that had been created on the Zumo screen.

To make it happen you you have to be navigating a route that the XT has recalculated. This could be at the start, by choosing closest entry point, by skipping a route point. Once recalculated, any future deviation is likely to result in the XT trying to send you back the way that you came. What it is actually trying to do is to get you to go to the closest point of it's route - which is often the bit of the route that it has just laid behind you !
If you turn off permission to perform U turns and the roads are such that it cannot find a different way to turn you back, then it can be seen that it is not trying to take you back to the point of deviation, but it is heading for the closest point on its original route. With no opportunity to head you back for about 5 miles, if it spots the original route 4 miels ahead, it will head for that. This behaviour can also be seen if you deviate from a track that has been converted into a Trip.

The best examples of this happening are when the XT calculates a route that uses faster roads, and (say) takes two sides of a rectangle to get you to the next route point. You deviate by taking the diagonal / direct route that is both shorter and faster. With a route like this that has been planned on the XT screen, the route will immediately recalculate to take the road that you are taking - because it is actually faster. It would be a mistake to think that just because the XT asks you to turn back, you have triggered the RUT behaviour. Unless you check it out, it might actually be faster to turn back.

None of this has anything to do with Via Points, Shaping Points or whether any of these were first created as waypoints. Closest Entry point does not aim for a route point in the route. It finds the point on the route that is closest to the XT's current position. Navigating a track that has been converted to a trip - when you deviate it finds a new way to get to the closest point of the original magenta line. The XT has the ability to aim for the closest section of a magenta line. And this is what it is doing when this RUT behaviour begins. The point is that it shouldn't. It should calculate a new route to take you to the next route point in its list - which is what it does when the route ahs been created in the Trip Planner app on the XT. But when the route has been imported, and when it has recalculated mid-route, any future deviation seems to make it behave differently - as if it was using the wrong algorithm to perform the calculation.

The observation I made early on that it didn't seem to happen with routes created in the XT turned out to be key to the solution - but I had to prove it by being able to make it happen whenever I wanted and it not being some random event - like chossing a different route due to historic traffic data that is still stored in the maps, and which can affect routing on certain days and at certain times (as used by the 590). Once I was able to make it happen, prove that it was aiming not for the point of deviation, but for the point where it last asked me to turn back, I was able to say categorically that if the route recalculates, then at some future point in the route you deviate significantly so that it has to turn you back initially - then RUT behaviour will happen - but only if the route was not created on the Zumo itself. If it was, it will never happen.

With that information a member spotted that routes were divided into Imported and Saved when displayed on the XT screen, FrankB - who had been following my tests and commentary,and had performed a number of his own) went searching theough files inthe .System folder and found flags in some Trip files that were labelled 'mImported'.
So more tests. By changing the value of that flag using a Hex Editor we were able to prove that imported routes that had previously got stuck in a rut, now worked correctly on the same test routes. Other people have been able to back up these results. FrankB then developed a program to make the editing of that data easier to handle.

All of this information has been passed on to Garmin. Tech Support have passed it onto the team in the USA and we are waiting some action.

I don't know whether it would help or hinder progress if other people reported the fault. But please, if you do, make sure that you are talking about the same thing !!
 
There's some mis-information in the posts that I'd like to correct if I may. It's to do with the weird routing behaviour that happens with the XT under certain cirumstances.
It often manifests itself as repeatedly asking you to turn back - seemingly to a point where you left the magenta line. It also results in the active track log being fragemented into very short sections.

Because of the the U turn demands, I coined the term RUT - as in 'being stuck in a rut', and 'Repeated U Turn' behaviour.

As my tests continued I was able to pin down the nature of the behaviour and found out exactly when it occured, and crucially observed that it only happened with routes transferred to the XT from outside. It didn't happen to routes that had been created on the Zumo screen.

To make it happen you you have to be navigating a route that the XT has recalculated. This could be at the start, by choosing closest entry point, by skipping a route point. Once recalculated, any future deviation is likely to result in the XT trying to send you back the way that you came. What it is actually trying to do is to get you to go to the closest point of it's route - which is often the bit of the route that it has just laid behind you !
If you turn off permission to perform U turns and the roads are such that it cannot find a different way to turn you back, then it can be seen that it is not trying to take you back to the point of deviation, but it is heading for the closest point on its original route. With no opportunity to head you back for about 5 miles, if it spots the original route 4 miels ahead, it will head for that. This behaviour can also be seen if you deviate from a track that has been converted into a Trip.

The best examples of this happening are when the XT calculates a route that uses faster roads, and (say) takes two sides of a rectangle to get you to the next route point. You deviate by taking the diagonal / direct route that is both shorter and faster. With a route like this that has been planned on the XT screen, the route will immediately recalculate to take the road that you are taking - because it is actually faster. It would be a mistake to think that just because the XT asks you to turn back, you have triggered the RUT behaviour. Unless you check it out, it might actually be faster to turn back.

None of this has anything to do with Via Points, Shaping Points or whether any of these were first created as waypoints. Closest Entry point does not aim for a route point in the route. It finds the point on the route that is closest to the XT's current position. Navigating a track that has been converted to a trip - when you deviate it finds a new way to get to the closest point of the original magenta line. The XT has the ability to aim for the closest section of a magenta line. And this is what it is doing when this RUT behaviour begins. The point is that it shouldn't. It should calculate a new route to take you to the next route point in its list - which is what it does when the route ahs been created in the Trip Planner app on the XT. But when the route has been imported, and when it has recalculated mid-route, any future deviation seems to make it behave differently - as if it was using the wrong algorithm to perform the calculation.

The observation I made early on that it didn't seem to happen with routes created in the XT turned out to be key to the solution - but I had to prove it by being able to make it happen whenever I wanted and it not being some random event - like chossing a different route due to historic traffic data that is still stored in the maps, and which can affect routing on certain days and at certain times (as used by the 590). Once I was able to make it happen, prove that it was aiming not for the point of deviation, but for the point where it last asked me to turn back, I was able to say categorically that if the route recalculates, then at some future point in the route you deviate significantly so that it has to turn you back initially - then RUT behaviour will happen - but only if the route was not created on the Zumo itself. If it was, it will never happen.

With that information a member spotted that routes were divided into Imported and Saved when displayed on the XT screen, FrankB - who had been following my tests and commentary,and had performed a number of his own) went searching theough files inthe .System folder and found flags in some Trip files that were labelled 'mImported'.
So more tests. By changing the value of that flag using a Hex Editor we were able to prove that imported routes that had previously got stuck in a rut, now worked correctly on the same test routes. Other people have been able to back up these results. FrankB then developed a program to make the editing of that data easier to handle.

All of this information has been passed on to Garmin. Tech Support have passed it onto the team in the USA and we are waiting some action.

I don't know whether it would help or hinder progress if other people reported the fault. But please, if you do, make sure that you are talking about the same thing !!

Thanks
That makes sense
I created a circular route in the Dales as a Track, from home in Explore on my iPhone
Then sent it to Drive and imported it into XT & recalculated it in the XT, as a trip
On leaving home it kept asking to RUT, as you say
If I reverted to using it as a Track in the XT (instead of the recalculated Trip) it worked fine - but without turn by turn instructions-just a magenta line to follow
Most frustrating
But you have answered the issue, perfectly
 
Er yes my head hurts after reading that,but im a bit dim!
Unlike you Richard

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk
 
I prefer to plan my routes on PC so all the routes in my trip planner will initially show as IMPORTED routes and therefore subject to the misbehaviour and downright pita that this entails.
The workaround I have found works best was described elsewhere on this forum and that was a simple method of changing the route from being IMPORTED to SAVED, basically load the imported route, then come out of that screen and select ACTIVE route, then save that route and give it whatever name you wish, voila that route will now appear in trip planner as a saved route and thus not behave as you would expect.
 
From my point of view there are a couple of main issues with the Zumo XT. The now understood issues with imported routes outlinned by jfheath above and the algorithim that calculates point to point routes using faster time which now appears to mean main roads irrespective of distance or time except when connected to a phone and a route around traffic is offered. In my view this is less effective than the routing offered by old units which appeared to simply calculate the road speeds to get to a destination. However, having tried a couple of apps to route using my Honda Africa twin Android Auto capability, I have come to the conclusion that a dedicated Sat Nav for a motorcycle is still the way to go. Unless I'm just wanting to route point to point as quicky as possible for which google maps is superb. I hope that Garmin recognise the issues with the XT that the community have identified but in the meantime even with its foibles it is still a better choice (for me) than any of the routing GPX. capable apps. :)

 
Yes - for a long while it made my head hurt too.

I just spotted some people on here were trying to get to understand it - and having the same incorrect thought that I was having when I was trying to work out what was happening.
I hope it has prevented them from getting a headache.
I like the idea of being able to effectively change the flag by resaving the trip on the XT. I hadn't thought of doing that.
Who's idea was that, @Pablo1 - do you remember where you saw it ?
 
https://www.ukgser.com/community/threads/more-zumo-woes-what-about-the-new-update.340974/page-4 POST 69
For the repeated u-turns problem then this seems to stop it being a PITA if ;like me you're wary of using hex editors etc, or already have the saved trip on the XT:
1) Send the calculated route to the XT,
2) Open it up in the Trip Planner,
3) Select Go!,
4) Select the next via / way point, then Start.
5) Then go back into Trip Planner
6) Select Saved trips
7) Select My Active Route,
8) and Save it. Unfortunately the original name is lost, but c'est la vie.
9) Then select the trip you just saved in the Saved Trips area.
And so far, it seems to work for me.
 
https://www.ukgser.com/community/threads/more-zumo-woes-what-about-the-new-update.340974/page-4 POST 69
For the repeated u-turns problem then this seems to stop it being a PITA if ;like me you're wary of using hex editors etc, or already have the saved trip on the XT:
1) Send the calculated route to the XT,
2) Open it up in the Trip Planner,
3) Select Go!,
4) Select the next via / way point, then Start.
5) Then go back into Trip Planner
6) Select Saved trips
7) Select My Active Route,
8) and Save it. Unfortunately the original name is lost, but c'est la vie.
9) Then select the trip you just saved in the Saved Trips area.
And so far, it seems to work for me.

I will try that as a work around
 
I'm trying to catch up on the entire thread but I don't see how the XT is labelled flawed? Every satnav has "quirks" and I include every satnav app in that statement. Usually peoples problems with satnavs is user error, poor planning of the route, or just an unwillingness to adapt their own thought process to how the product works.

I'm no expert by any means, but having owned a TomTom Rider and now an XT I can confidently sit here and say neither of them is perfect, they have quirks for sure, so does that mean they are both "flawed"? Cause I can't see a reason to single out the XT as being inherently flawed.

I've been using mine for 2 years (previously the TomTom) with a bit of satnav app usage in between and for me the XT provides the best all round set of features and usability. I've had the same issues on the XT as I had on the TomTom and it was down to me not planning ahead and making sure the route had enough waypoints on it to get the satnav to route a very specific path, which is on me, not the device. Anyway, it's really each to their own but once I'd adapted my approach to scenic motorcycle routing I've had very little issues getting the route I want regardless of the device used.
 


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