Zero Zero TPS setting

[R Savage]

Has anyone followed the Zero-Zero method of setting throttle stop and TPS in an attempt to overcome the infamous GS sure/hesitation.

I'm gathering my enthusiasm to do it.

Rgds Richard

 

[Panzer Patrol]

DONT DO IT! DONT DO IT! DONT DO IT! DONT DO IT! DONT DO IT! DONT DO IT! DONT DO IT!.

Cos I did, and it turned into a complete bloody nightmare. Bob Lentini is on about the 1100 engine with the 2.2 moronic. The 1150 has the 2.4 moronic and I honestly dont think it works on the 1150.

After changing the factory presets on the throttle body stops to do zero-zero, the bike never felt right. Infact the butterfly valves gave the impression that they were sticking on fully closed. I had a hell of a job getting them back to standard. But its back to where it should be and it works now. If any one wants any hints and tips to get it back to standard, drop me a line.

IF YOU CHECK THE 1150 FACTORY MANUAL IT RECOMMENDS THAT THE THROTTLE BODIES SHOULD BE SET AT 5 DEGREES WHEN AT REST. NOT ZERO, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT FOLKS.

End of sermon....have a nice day

 

[The Mechanic]

Amen.

Zero, zero can cause the throttle plates to touch the throttle boby housing which will obviously cause (as you mention) sticking of the seriously jerky kind when trying to open the throttle. I did not encounter this problem when I followed Bobs instructions, but his method seems along way round the houses to arrive at the (possible) settings; measuring the throttle plate gap is my preferred way BUT I'M NOT SUGGESTING 'ANYONE' IS WRONG HERE. You just have to set the TPS using the mounting screws rather than the throttle stop on the left hand side throttle body.

When you follow the Bob 'L' method the throttle plate screw is used to increase/decrease the TPS voltage reading to the desired setting (tending to be more accurate for TPS positioning than just swinging the TPS body by hand and rhen clamping the screws down), it does not take account of the throttle plate air gap. This is countered by the air by-pass screws which may have to be adjusted wider than previously set to allow enough air in for stable idle speeds. So then you carry out Twinmax or what ever is your preference to balance the throttle plates on the throttle cables and then the air by-pass screws. All very satisfying mechanically...if it is right.

I have found that the throttle plates are set correctly on their stops when there is a gap of 0.0015 in (one and a half thou.) measured at the lower edge of the throttle plate using a tapered feeler blade. No less, no more.

The 2003 model 1150GS TPS also appears to be set from the factory at .301 v (that could indicate a fuel system set up for somewhere other than UK the bike came from a UK Dealer) where as Bob states that it should be .370 - .400v max. My experience here is that with the TPS set at .391v the idle and throttle response are better but fuel consumption drops. At the factory set .301v the engine was more inclined to pink (detonate) especially when two-up and pulling away from a standstill when hot. Now the TPS is set at .370v and everything appears to be hunky dory, fuel cons. is improved also, however the engine is still tight as it has a few more thousand miles to go to fully loosen up.......rattle even more if you like!.....

 

[R Savage]

Re: Amen.

"I have found that the throttle plates are set correctly on their stops when there is a gap of 0.0015 in (one and a half thou.) measured at the lower edge of the throttle plate using a tapered feeler blade. No less, no more."


Is this similar to setting butterfly valves on carburetors using calibrated wires or sometimes tiny twist drills? And you are measuring the gap between the throttle plate inside the throttle body and the wall of the throttle body?

I posted this thread because I spent a long time last weekend carefully setting valve clearances and using a (borrowed) mercury carbtune to balance the engine at idle and just off idle. I think that because the cylinders are now much more balanced the hesitation and surging is much more apparent.

Any suggestions as to a route to resolve this?

Would you suggest that I adjust the TPS voltage by rotating the TPS only

Richard

 

[Gecko]

Richard
Before getting all wound up with very tricky stuff just try a different set of plugs. I had surging on my 1100 and swapped the OEM Bosch FR6DDC (2 electrode) for Champion RC9YC and this made a whole lot of difference. If you are a hard core Bosch fan you can use the F6DC Bosch instead of the RC9YC Champion.
The one the Yanks rave about is the Autolite 3923 . I have a used set of these from a kind donor which I will put in at the next service to see if they are all that they are cracked up to be.
I'm no mechanic but this simple switch of plugs makes a lot of difference for very little money.
Take Note : These plugs that I have mentioned are for the R1100GS - I am not sure if the 1150 uses the same.
Good luck
Gecko

 

[R Savage]

Richard
Before getting all wound up with very tricky stuff just try a different set of plugs. I had surging on my 1100 and swapped the OEM Bosch FR6DDC (2 electrode) for Champion RC9YC and this made a whole lot of difference. If you are a hard core Bosch fan you can use the F6DC Bosch instead of the RC9YC Champion.
The one the Yanks rave about is the Autolite 3923 . I have a used set of these from a kind donor which I will put in at the next service to see if they are all that they are cracked up to be.
I'm no mechanic but this simple switch of plugs makes a lot of difference for very little money.
Take Note : These plugs that I have mentioned are for the R1100GS - I am not sure if the 1150 uses the same.
Good luck
Gecko

Hi Gecko,

Yes, it's been recommended that I try the Champion EON-1 plugs which are, I understand, the same as R9YCC4. Currently I have the NGK plugs and they were the best colour I have ever seen in all my years of using electric vehicles. Unfortunately my local Halfords does not stock Champion and the next nearest shut 5 minutes ago! However, I did phone before they shut and found that they do stock the Champion plugs in packs of 4 at £19!!!

Interestingly the bod I spoke to suggested using an injector cleaner before lashing out on plugs. Any views? I certainly spent good money on having the injectors cleaned and re-calibrated on a diesel Range Rover to good effect. Do FI bikes benefit from the snake oil sold as injector cleaner?

Cheers Richard

 

[Gecko]

IMHO in western Europe with good fuel you would be just wasting your money unless perhaps you were on a very high mileage machine. I you were riding on cheap dirty fuel in sub Saharan Africa then perhaps your injectors could do with a clean up but your average fuel today is full of detergents and additives so I don't believe there would be any benefit. I have 55,000 kms on mine and never had the injectors cleaned yet. The plug swap worked fine for me although I must confess that my valves need doing - things get a bit vibey around 70mph so that's something to do one rainy day soon .
Have you got an 1150 or a much better 1100 ??

 

[R Savage]

Have you got an 1150 or a much better 1100 ??

Unfortunately I have a much worse 1150! But it has been (slightly) improved by swopping the standard final drive for a 32/10 ratio 850GS final drive. Thus it now has the same upper and lower gear ratios as your 1100, albeit over 6 rather than 5 gears. Basically the gearing has been dropped by 13%. Well worth £500!!!!

Richard ;-)

 

[Gecko]

Smart move - the 6th gear is something I wouldn't mind sometimes on mine but not at the cost of sacrificing the lower gears.
Give my regards to Sevenoaks - I spent time at Wilderness Secondary Modern many many years ago (as a student)
Cheers
Gecko

 

[The Mechanic]

Richard, try this method.

In answer to your question, yes it is just the same as setting carb butterflies (emission rigged or choke plates) between the plate and the inside of the throttle housing.

I assume that you have Twinmax, Carbtune etc. and a digital voltmeter.

Set the TPS according to the R (Bob). Lentini method..BASIC. not zero zero. I would personally set the TPS at .370v for an 1100 or 1150.. oooh er watch the reaction to this. Red/white wire (the one closest to your leg when sitting on the bike.
I use a safety pin pushed into the connector block-carefully-!

Start and run engine (go for 10 min ride) return to base. Think about extra air to cool the engine whislt doing this next process (fan or some such).

Close off fully (but lightly) both air by-pass screws (brass screws) starty up, the bike will run like pooh if you close the throttle so try and maintain 1500 plus rpm 2000rpm would be ok for a short period (minute or two). You have eliminated any possible air from the air by-pass passageways so are now only balancing the throttle plates....for equal air flow to each individual cylinder. Under normal circumstances the by-pass passageways would not have any affect upon engine running above quater throttle plus anyway, but we are just making doubley sure ok.

Adjust the RIGHTHAND throttle cable to establish a balanced reading.

Now SHUT the throttle and let the engine try to idle (it will probably run all over the place) Kill the ignition.

Adjust both brass screws by turning them out EXACTLY one and a half full turns.

Start the engine and now fine balance the brass screws to achieve a balanced reading AT IDLE.. DO NOT TOUCH THE THROTTLE CABLE ADJUSTER.

You can now turn the brass screws in an equal amount to slow the idle or turn them out an eqaul amount to increase the idle.
Try to aim for 1050/1100 rpm, this may change after the next step.

Helmet up and go for another ride (as far as you like) return to base and carry out final idle stabilsation balance checks and adjustments if necessary.

Finally take some paint (touch up stick works fine) and seal the brass screws with a dob of paint and seal the adjuster for the throttle cable to, if the seal is broken someone's been 'twiddling yer bits'.

This works for me time and time again, don't be afraid to play around with the TPS settings you can't do much damage apart from bring up a fault code from the ECU, unplug fuse 5 and that normally corrects the error message.

You can alter the idling by moving the TPS but this also alters the fuelling at the critical stages of just off idle and upto about 2,500rpm APPROX. hence the hesitation probs most people complain of.

TPS gives .370+v = slightly richer mixture
TPS gives .370- v = slightly weaker mix.

Try it and good luck.

PS its a big old lump of an engine with ginormous pistons wobbling about so don't expect miracles of smoothness at slow speeds, but it should none the less be acceptable. The shaft-drive makes even the slightest hiccup felt by the rider especially when solo, my 1150 is the smoothest of smooooooth 2 up but not so good solo.....and that will bring the comments flying as well.

I leave you with this thought.....exhaust gas analysis!

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

We always used to adjust idle mixture using a digital rev counter - as taught by Hondas training courses.

What you are doing is setting the fastest speed available on the idle mixture screw.

Too rich - idle slows
too weak - idle slows
exactly right = highest revs.

Then correct idle speed on throttle stops

This gives the best mixture in the actual cylinder head.
Not sure if this works on FI motors - is it counteracted by the moronic ?

Phil

 

[The Mechanic]

Exactly why!

Thats exactly why i put the NB piece at the foot. Exhaust gas analysis.

With carbs you are adjusting the idle mixture and there is NO lambda sensor to screw things up for you. but with the 'Moronic' system you are only adjusting the amount of air able to 'by-pass' the throttle plate and not the idle jet and air bleed. The 'Moronic' and the lambda take care of mixture or rather quantity of fuel injected, hence why it so important that the throttle plates are synchronised to move exactly as one together.

Interestingly enough no matter how many cylinders your engine has there is only one lambda sensor (yes I know some cars have two - one either side of the cat but not on bikes...yet.) therefore the ECU acts on combined cylinder information, which means if one cylinder is seriously rich - example the left throttle plate is open slightly more than the right giving more air flow to the left cylinder and insuffucient to the right ending up with the lambda sensor telling the ECU via voltage output that the system needs a weaker mix/injector pulse width reduction. Result = even leaner mix and hesitation, pinking and general rough running.

Its just a cheap way of satisfying EU emission regs by monitoring total cylinder effect rather than individual cylinder performance upon exhaust output.

The air by-pass screws are only a means of establishing a smooth and consistent idle, if they weren't there we'd have to adjust the throttle plates which as they are quite big would have a fairly dramatic effect upon engine performance in terms of vibration due to imbalance again.

The system fitted to the bike is quite old fashioned now (out of date) when compared to whats in your latest offerings from the car makers:

At the risk of putting my head on the chopping block the system lacks; the refinement available to this manufacturer that they incorporate into their cars but do not put onto their bikes. Still only using one (possibly two lambda sensors) lambda sensor but with many more controls and ECU monitored sensors. Probably the reason that they do not put best practice onto the bike engines is because its still an old air cooled lump.

Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Honda plus Aprilia and now Ducati, all have superior fuel injection when compared to above.

There no doubt my two penn'oth will draw marked criticism but what the heck!

 

[R Savage]

Re: Richard, try this method.

Mechanic,

Yes I have a borrowed Carbtune and Fluke DVM.

I checked the TPS voltage last night and was surprised to see 300mV. It's now set to 370mV via the 'pin and twist' method. When I have more time I'll go through your setting procedure gently.

Motomartin,

That's exactly how I remember tuning Weber carbs on my cars.


Thanks to all.

Richard

 

[The Mechanic]

Carbtune, what model.

Care with the Carbtune, they've modded the damping on the latest ones so the accuracy is even better, if you are using an older one you should get very good results but the latest is even better.

Good luck and take your time, send the wife/girlfriend out shopping so its nice and peaceful while you work.

 

[Captain Beaky]

Morgan Carbtune - you'll find them on the web, you can buy online...

 

[R Savage]

Morgan Carbtune - you'll find them on the web, you can buy online...

Thanks for that, and have found their page.

BUT is the stainless steel version as good as, or better than, the original mercury model?

Rgds Richard

 

[Captain Beaky]

I thought they were all Stainless.

A set of murcury columns is really expensive.
If you find a set at a reasonable price, then grab them.

The stainless set I just bought work fine, and are more rugged than Mercury.

You have to put the damper in (Little bit of pipe that damps the movement).

Set mine up before scotland, and it made a huge difference to the smoothness of the bike.

Used the Zero-Zero method, and it works fine.

My bike did go into a mad stage of pinking in Scotland, but I think I have had some crap in the fuel. I'll change the Fuel filter at the next service which is now due.