Alternator light stays on during cold start

jaak

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Hi,

I've been having a weird electrical gremlin for the past year. Always after a cold start the battery reads 11,99V. Then I rev the engine a bit and alternator light goes out and charge jumps to normal values (~13,7V). If the temps are freezing even revving will not help and it takes around 20 sec before alt light goes out.

I've changed the battery and the voltage regulator but the result is still the same.

Has anybody had a problem like that before? google hasn't been very helpful or I havn't asked the right question.

Cheers,

:nenau
 
Its normal for the alternator light to stay on after a cold start at idle, but should go out as soon as the engine is reved. It does sound like the brushes on the alternator to me, but as you have changed the regulator this should have been sorted it as it includes the brush gear on the unit. However, did you check the commutator was nice and clean as well? This is important and would cause the symptons you have.

Additional simple, but unlikely, checks would be the charging lamp and its holder. Also check the voltage at the blue wire on the diagnostic plug under the seat. This is taken from the alternator and also goes to one side of the charging lamp to provide an earth return on switch on, then once the engine is running provides a feed to give no pd at the lamp (12volts either side, so it goes out).

I take it we are talking about the Bosch alternator and not a Denso unit?

Edit: as per MikeO above, this assumes your belt is all correctly tensioned.
 
Belt tension is OK and running freely straight after ignition. Alternator is a Bosch unit.
I'll check the blue wire. Thanks.
 
It sounds like you don't have alternator starting current flowing through your D+ wire. Does your Alt/Batt light come on when you turn the key on when you have this problem?

I had this problem too. There were two causes:

--the spade terminal which connects the "blue" D+ wire mentioned above to the alternator was loose at the alternator.

--the Alt/Batt bulb was a 1.7W incandescent bulb. Over the years, BMW has changed that to a 3.3W bulb to provide a higher alternator starting current. On my bike the High Beam indicator bulb was 3.3W so I just swapped them.

The alternator needs a trickle of current from the D+ lead to begin charging, or high enough RPMs to allow the residual magnetism in the rotor to get charging started. That current flows from the battery, through the Alt/Batt bulb, through the alternator slip-rings, then to ground. If anything in that path makes a poor connection of if the bulb is burned out or low power, the alternator won't start charging.

In my experience, the low voltage you report also makes the idling of the motor a bit rough while it warms up. The reason is, when the engine is cold it needs extra fuel, lower voltage at the injectors results in a slower injector turn-on time, reducing its fuel output. Although the Motronic has battery voltage compensation built-in to its software, the compensation isn't always enough.

Here is a link to what happened to mine with a couple good charts: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=810741&page=all
 
Roger 04 RT, that's some great info. The highest wattage I could find was 2,3W T5 bulb (Autoekspert in Tallinn). That seems to have improved my issue a little. Alt. light doesn't stay on long and only needs some mild revving.

Thanks! :beerjug:
 
You're welcome. You could add a 150 ohm 2 watt resistor from the D+ lead (at the diagnostic connector) to a switched +12V. That would add a bit more starting current.

Also, the High Bean annunciator bulb is 3.3 watts you could swap bulbs.
 
You're welcome. You could add a 150 ohm 2 watt resistor from the D+ lead (at the diagnostic connector) to a switched +12V. That would add a bit more starting current.

Also, the High Bean annunciator bulb is 3.3 watts you could swap bulbs.

Roger, I really hope you don't mind me asking, but, what do you do for a living? Your a smart guy.

i wonder if you design for nasa or apple or something... ,
 
The simple CV would be that I built companies that developed electronic systems in testing and measurement. Dissecting the Motronic and electrical bits of my R1150 are a nice avocation and let me get my hands on again. One of the businesses had a division of engineers in Surrey.
 
Good man roger. I'd love to feed you good beer and get your opinion on tesla vs that other lad....!
 
Hi,

I've been having a weird electrical gremlin for the past year. Always after a cold start the battery reads 11,99V. Then I rev the engine a bit and alternator light goes out and charge jumps to normal values (~13,7V). If the temps are freezing even revving will not help and it takes around 20 sec before alt light goes out.

Sounds completely normal to me :nenau (both of mine have done the same. plus or minus)

As long as the alternator is putting out around 13-14.5v when it IS charging, and doesn't drop below 12.5(ish) on idle once it's kicked in, I wouldn't worry about it :)
 
One good reason to get the alternator started early on an R1150 on cold days is that the engine idles more smoothly with the battery voltage at about 14 V with the alternator charging than at about 12 V with the alternator offline.

The reason is that when the voltage drops to 12 V with a cold engine, the fueling is Open Loop. At 12 V the injector turn on time is much slower, and although the Motronic tries to compensate, it doesn't compensate enough. As a result the mixture is leaner than optimum and the engine runs less smoothly.

Below is a post I made a couple years ago:

Here's a good example of the alternator coming on late. It was before I figured out what was going on.

Looking at the curve below from 40 seconds to 60 seconds you can see the START-UP enrichment program being run. In that period, the Motronic is gradually reducing the enrichment.

At the 60 mark, until about the 2 minute mark, the Motronic is holding the length of the fuel pulses fairly steady, but it looks as if the mixture is getting richer. This is because as the engine warms up, more of the fuel gets burned and there is less oxygen in the exhaust. And what the O2 sensor is measuring is oxygen which effectively means mixture.

The from the 2 minute mark until about 5:10, the Motronic is gradually reducing the fuel as the engine warms further. But you can see at 3:20, the mixture steps down. This is exactly when my alternator started charging. The injector pulses didn't get longer (in fact they got a little shorter as the Motronic uncompensated for the low voltage) but the Battery Voltage got higher and the injector turn-on time got shorter and they squirted a bit more fuel--roughy 7% more.

Had the alternator been running from the beginning, the first 3:20 of the graph would be shifted down by about 7% richer.

Finally just before 5:20, the Motronic goes Closed Loop and settles on +- 13.8:1, which is where my LC-1 is set, 6% richer than a stock O2 sensor.

plug3087.jpg


Here is a clean start of my R1150RT with everything working as it should on a day when my garage was about 45 degrees, same as above. You can compare it to the previous graph where there is the step down due to the alternator coming on late at 3:20 on that graph.

Because my mixture is richer than standard, the start-up is richer too but it seems to work fine.

r1150cleanstart-001.jpg
 
BMW sells it for a few bucks. Not sure what source you guys use for BMW parts. I got this number from maxbmw.com

Part Number: 62142306126 BULB - 12V 3W $3.73
 


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