FD leak again?

[comberjohn]

I'm hoping that this is just a one off that someone here has experienced before.
A 2010 TC with just under 28k miles, couple of weeks ago there were fine spots of oil on the rear wheel and a mist on the FD from the centre of the hub.
No problem, it's the cheap one. Had the seal changed by an experienced mechanic in no time.
Been out a couple of times since with no more problems.
Until today. Did a couple of hundred miles and while giving it a hose down to wash any salt away, it was cold here last night, noticed some oil marks on the rear rim. Hardly anything and they are only for about 9" around the rim. Can't see where it has come from.
This is starting to make me a bit twitchy. Has the new seal failed? Is the expensive one on it's way out now?
Or, fingers crossed, has anyone experienced a small amount of oil coming from the breather on a longish run out?
If it is the expensive one I'll be very disappointed. Had hoped the FD issues were a thing of the past.
Love the bike but would really have to think about what to do next.

 

[duckspeed]

Could it have been over filled?
The filler hole is not the measure of content and should be drained and filled with 180ml of oil

 

[comberjohn]

That's what I was wondering myself. It was recently serviced by Moto Tech here in N Ireland and the owner, Brian, is recommended as knowing his way around these bikes. The oil in the FD was changed at that service.
I know that different people on the forum have their own ideas on how much to put in to the FD in terms of protecting the bearings by overfilling slightly.
Sort of hoping that's what it is. Will give him a ring on Monday anyway to see what he thinks.

 

[Bendy toy]

Seals rarely fail without an underlying reason. Mine always has 220ml of oil but only leaked when the bearings failed.

I had the whole FD rebuilt by MikeyBoy. Parcel posted it to him and he sent it back when done. I now have a full set of bearings to last another 50K. Longer with some luck.

 

[(RIP) Johno23]

Can you feel any movement in the wheel/bearing when you hold the wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock?

 

[DrFarkoff]

That's what I was wondering myself. It was recently serviced by Moto Tech here in N Ireland and the owner, Brian, is recommended as knowing his way around these bikes. The oil in the FD was changed at that service.
I know that different people on the forum have their own ideas on how much to put in to the FD in terms of protecting the bearings by overfilling slightly.
Sort of hoping that's what it is. Will give him a ring on Monday anyway to see what he thinks.

My Advice Pop the ring off the right side and check behind it for Grit and oil residue If its clear?

Cut a 1 - 2 cm wide strip 8 - 10 cm long vertically off the corner of a 2 or 3 litre milk bottle and CAREFULLY slip it under the seal and angling it so as you move whichever direction anything will move up the strip and outside the seal

Then go for a run so everything gets nice and warm and drop the oil and let it sit for an hour or two with the drain bung out

and go find a reputable brand of 85W140 or 90W140 GL5 gear oil and stick 200ml back in

I have used "thinner" oils and there were recurring issues with 1200GS bikes 5 or 6 years ago

Whilst I don't want to start an argument Bottom Line this grade of Oil has worked since I started using it and servicing peoples bikes I have had ZERO problems with FDs or Seals

 

[mikeyboy]

My Advice Pop the ring off the right side and check behind it for Grit and oil residue If its clear?

Cut an 1 - 2 cm wide strip vertically off the corner of a 2 or 3 litre milk bottle and CAREFULLY slip it under the seal and angling it so as you move whichever direction anything will move up the strip and outside the seal

Then go for a run so everything gets nice and warm and drop the oil and let it sit for an hour or two

and go find a reputable brand of 85W140 or 90W140 GL5 gear oil and stick 200 back in

I have used "thinner" oils and there were recurring issues

Whilst I don't want to start an argument Bottom Line this grade of Oil has worked since I started using it and servicing peoples bikes I have had ZERO problems with FDs or Seals

 

[Bendy toy]

I now use the Castrol Syntrax 85-140 in the gearbox and back axle. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/1619...1=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=122&ff19=0

I bought the bike showing 35K. Who knows what oil was used, but the FD was full of crap when I first change the oil. I originally used 75-90. At 50K it needed a full rebuild. I reasoned that having no idea of the internal bearing's condition, simply changing the wheel bearing and seal were false economy.

Mikey said the internals were all "ready" so Im happy to have had the job done properly.

 

[comberjohn]

Right. Had it out today again and it's still doing it.
I'm guessing that a very small amount of oil is collecting somewhere and being flung off when I set off. The oil splashes are only on a section of the rim, not all the way around.
No discernible play in the wheel bearings.
Checked under the hub where the other seal was replaced and it's bone dry. Checked the breather and it's dry, too.
Looks like the main seal. Anyone want to tell me I'm wrong? Please?
First thought was go and buy a Honda or something. But I'm going to have to get it fixed anyway before I can get rid of it and there's nothing else available that suits me as well.
Guess I'll just have to develop Bendy's attitude that it's something I may have to do every 50k miles. Suppose it would be nearly as expensive to replace a good chain and sprockets in a similar time period.

 

[Pukmeister]

Looking at the wetness in your final pic, it looks like the seal behind the rear disk carrier flange is leaking (left hand oil seal).

A bit of a job to replace the rear seal, requiring removal of the flange from the splined hub then a removal and stripdown of the FD crown wheel to replace the left hand oil seal.

Dr Farkoff or Mikeyboy are probably your best bet.

 

[comberjohn]

Yes, that's what I'm thinking (hoping!).
Beyond my meagre mechanic skills, never mind dodgy digits.
As I said, no noticeable play in the wheel so is this the same rebuild frequently mentioned in connection with the SC final drive? Just a new seal or would it be sensible to change the bearings while in there?

 

[DrFarkoff]

Hold Fire there Bald Eagle!

Could well be just the wee o ring on the speed sensor they are prone to getting nicked if not just sitting correct when re inserting the Sensor

Big Seals "Usually" Do not let go its usually the other side first (Oil is very dirty looking for a recent change to be honest!!!)

 

[comberjohn]

Smart thinking, Hawkeye.
Was looking at a zoomed in version of the same pic and it does seem to be coming from that area.
I did change the sensor a month or so ago and may have nicked it. Think it'll be worth ordering up a new one and try it.
The FD oil was definitely changed at the last service as I had noticed that it was a bit milky looking when I changed the sensor.
I think I'll change it again to be on the safe side and put in some of the heavier stuff as you and others have recommended.
Good eBay link, Bendy. Have ordered it up.
Well spotted, Jay. Glad I put those pics up now!

 

[comberjohn]

Smart thinking, Hawkeye.
Was looking at a zoomed in version of the same pic and it does seem to be coming from that area.
I did change the sensor a month or so ago and may have nicked it. Think it'll be worth ordering up a new one and try it.
The FD oil was definitely changed at the last service as I had noticed that it was a bit milky looking when I changed the sensor.
I think I'll change it again to be on the safe side and put in some of the heavier stuff as you and others have recommended.
Good eBay link, Bendy. Have ordered it up.
Well spotted, Jay. Glad I put those pics up now!

 

[Sgt Bilco]

I had the same issue after an FD change and did damage the speed sensor seal. Bit of a panic for a few minutes but all well with a new seal.

I budget for FD rebuilds and have mine done every 2/3 years to be on the safe side. I do go to far away places and do a big mileage though and I think it's worthwhile. Don't let BMW do it though and use your trusted indie. It's £350 well spent.

 

[Bendy toy]

I put my speed sensor back without it's O-ring seal. You have never seen so much oil loss in so few miles. An embarrassing cal to Mikeyboy sussed the problem.

My point about the bearings and main seals:
If one is going (not yet confirmed) then others wont be far behind. With the costs of replacement FDs it made sense to bite the bullet.

 

[comberjohn]

Well, looks like the main seal in the FD is shot after all.
Had changed the O ring on the abs sensor and it did look like it had been nicked. Cleaned the oil from hub and hoped for the best.
Did a couple of short runs with no problem. But did a few hundred miles today and it's as bad as ever.
Pulled the wheel off and it's bone dry around the sensor.
Main seal is the only place it could be coming from. Just a question whether bearings are shot, too.

 

[Sgt Bilco]

Well, looks like the main seal in the FD is shot after all.
Had changed the O ring on the abs sensor and it did look like it had been nicked. Cleaned the oil from hub and hoped for the best.
Did a couple of short runs with no problem. But did a few hundred miles today and it's as bad as ever.
Pulled the wheel off and it's bone dry around the sensor.
Main seal is the only place it could be coming from. Just a question whether bearings are shot, too.

Your best option in that case is to whip it off and get it to Mikeyboy who will do total rebuild. You'll have a few years of happy riding when you get it back

 

[Bendy toy]

Mike did my FD at 50,000 miles. The wheel bearing and seal were failing but I reasoned the internals would likely be in a similar state. Mike said they were all "ready" so it wasn't over-cautious to have it all done.

£350 plus delivery to Mike's workshop and back and he replaced all bearings and reset the internal clearances. It runs smoother and should be good for at least another 50K. Maybe more. Special tools and fixtures are needed so it's not a DIY job. Tye wheel bearing and seal alone would be a big chunk of that cost.

If the finish is failing, Mike can have the case powder coated. If the axle tunnel is going the same way, you could have that done as well.

Excessive oil is never good as it churns and over heats. But I'm convinced that BMW's reduced oil levels have not helped with FD longevity. I use 200ml at an oil change and never had it overflow via the breather. I change it every engine oil change. I may try 220ml next time.

The article by Patzx12 shows the issues
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/166875-The-inside-of-my-FD?p=1623869#post1623869

 

[comberjohn]

Have emailed Mikeyboy and just putting up a pic of how bad it is.
Going to pull the FD off this afternoon.