Final Drive Failure Register

[Chris Hooke]

and another in France ... 2011 GSA with 32K kilometres.

4 days after buying the bike in Nice (where my girlfriend lives), having done around 100klms of testing, I began its first proper trip into the Alps with the girlfriend and appropiate mounds of baggage.
As you would expect in the Alps a lot of lovely twisties - so when I arrived at my destination after 4 hours of new-bike joy I was so pleased to see oil all over the rear rim and right edge of the tyre and marvelling at how we didn't lose it, no reflection at all on my modest abilities.

After removing the wheel it's clear that it's an FD seal (inner?- next to the disk).
I dropped the FD oil - horrible black and smelly and bits of seal, very little metal on the magnet - renewed with some borrowed 80/90.
I measured the old oil and it was 170ml. So had only lost 10ml which surprised me, considering the amount of oil on the rim and tyre.
No movement on the wheel and no nasty sounds I could detect. Take it for a spin, literally, as oil pisses out, but then subsides after a while and I think maybe I'm ok. Then I have the bright idea to find an additive to block up leaking seals in the nearest town (Sisteron), change the oil again (comes out horrible and black again which surprises me) and renew with 10% of this Bardahls GEAR OIL ADDITIVE +STOP LEAK. No leak in test and no leaking overnight - overjoyed - set off on trip to the south-west and 60 minutes later I abandon the trip as the leak starts again. I return to Nice and hand the bike over to BMW Nice because, although I bought it privately, it came with a non-BMW warranty that has a month to run and I'm HOPING will work.
By the way, by the time I get to Nice the leak has reduced radically after losing probably only around 10ml of oil, if that, so maybe the Bardahls just needed a bit of time.

To cut this short, and this is the peculiar thing, BMW Nice just told me on the phone that the entire FD needs replacing!! I will be picking up the bike on Friday and will post exactly what went wrong in their eyes and why they felt the need to replace the whole shebang.
And the very good news is the warranty has worked.
I've bought plenty of used bikes in my day and this is the first immediate failure I've ever had and the first time ever the bike had a warranty.
Lucky or wot??
And I'm sure readers are thinking the seller saw me coming - I don't think so, he was a very very very nice man, it was just one of those things.

And finally ..... (will he ever stop?) .... I bought one of the first R1200GS bikes (new) in 2004 in London and within a couple of thousand miles had an FD bearing failure in Greece where they decided to, yes, replace the entire FD - how about that! Could I have started a trend?
I eventually sold that bike to the girlfriend's brother in Nice and he's never had a single thing go wrong in 50,000 miles. The luck of the French.

My first post, great site, great info and entertaining at the same time - worth every penny. Thanks.

 

[PatM]

FD Comment...

and another in France ... 2011 GSA with 32K kilometres.

Ive gone to the dark side, but Ive a feeling ill be back- My GSA was stolen last year and as it what the Firms and they said 'tough'- I had to get back on 2-wheels fast, so am now on a TEX. Ive only done 10k on it, and had to have the waterworks re-plumbed under warranty due to leaks under the tank.
Anyway, seeing as I've contributed in the past to this topic- and having probably the highest FD failure rate- and trust me- thats not a boast Im proud off- I do mention it when i see BMWS , not as a negative, just as a warning...All machines break down and the last one was good in that department- it had the breather - '11 plate.

 

[Chris Hooke]

and another in France ... 2011 GSA with 32K kilometres.

All machines break down and the last one was good in that department- it had the breather - '11 plate.

Well, forgive me, I wasn't thinking it good at the time ....
But you're right, it's just that FD failures on the BMW are more than they should be. I think I'm right in saying they are much more prone to problems than the Yamaha shaft drives and Guzzis. I personally think it's unacceptable and put it not so much down to an inherent design weakness but rather a failure at quality control. Otherwise how do we account for many FDs lasting very well? Also it is not unknown for BMW to replace the FD out of warranty. Obviously they know they have a problem here.
A poster once said that it's probably wise to buy a good used FD and just store it.
If you don't need it before you sell the bike it you can be sure someone else will need it - and that's as close as you can get to a FACT.

 

[PatM]

You misunderstood me. I think it's discusting. If you search this thread you will see I've contributed tears back when I had my first FD go. That bike lost 4 and 3 gearboxes. I've had 3 GS's as I was supplied them by the Firm and then did high mileage on each. They all earned their keep and were Dealer serviced and we're weekend serviced by me. When it first started to happen on my 06.", I thought it was me! The Dealer said nothing. Then my work colleague had his go... And so it went on.

 

[Bendy toy]

Alternatively send your leaking FD to Steptoe or Mikeyboy for rebuild.

 

[Chris Hooke]

You misunderstood me. I think it's discusting. If you search this thread you will see I've contributed tears back when I had my first FD go. That bike lost 4 and 3 gearboxes. I've had 3 GS's as I was supplied them by the Firm and then did high mileage on each. They all earned their keep and were Dealer serviced and we're weekend serviced by me. When it first started to happen on my 06.", I thought it was me! The Dealer said nothing. Then my work colleague had his go... And so it went on.

No worries Pat, we are on the same page. Actually my first line was in jest anyway. I will do a search, will be interesting.
Yes Bendy, I did read about Mikeyboy and have got his details. I will search for Steptoe, actually his name rings a bell from way back when I was living int he UK.
I do know a decent independent BMW garage here in Nice. Like a lot of owners, especially ones that like to do a lot of servicing themselves, I try to avoid the Stealers but in this case it paid for me to give it to BMW Nice because of the warranty. And the fact is bloody BMW have seen fit to make it nearly impossible to sort out the Final Drive yourself - it needs special tools, apart form the outer seal which is an easy fix.
And they call it an 'Adventure' bike ......
As many mechanics will tell you, don't take a 1200GS too far out of range of a diagnostic tool.

 

[PatM]

it wouldn't stop me getting another as my last one- '11 plate was good. i did 68k before it was harvested away from me. in that time I had the sub-frame and the downpipes changed under W'tee due to premature corrosion- yes, I ride all year, all weathers- not just a run down to Spain or whatever . I always kept up the extended w'tee as it paid for itself. tHE 'register' has tales of cost and woe which BMW refused to fund.

 

[GFJ]

Just had a 6k service and recalls done at bmw dealer on my k1300gt. Advised that my fd was rumbly.

Bit miffed as bike has fbmwsh, and only 6k on it. That said, I never had any problems on my rt or gs so I guess some you win, some you lose etc

After reading this forum its now with mikeyboy of this parish for overhaul, and I am hoping for many years of trouble free motoring from it after that.

 

[Chris Hooke]

an update on my FD problem - I picked the bike up and BMW Nice had replaced the entire FD. The culprit of the leaking seal they said was the Crown & Pinion bearing and that was all. Even so it was easier and cheaper for them to replace the entire FD. How amazing is that? Something is just not right here. So I asked the Independent BMW Moto garage I use in Nice (BMW Station it's called - a small operation, very good and honest) and Jeremy, the head guy there, told me that he replaces the bearing for about 250 Euros!! But BMW Nice saw fit to replace the entire FD.
Am I missing something here? Do people think this is odd? How is it that the Japs and Guzzi seem to be able to manufacture reliable & simple Shaft/FDs and BMW, who are famous for them, can't? Sure a lot survive ok, but enough don't to worry. If they were simple to fix and you could do it in the field that would be one thing but it ain't the way it is.

Jeremy just shrugged and said that was the way BMW has gone now. When I said it was odd for a so-called 'Adventure' bike to be so complicated to fix (on a part they seem to be having problems with) he laughed and said with the usual Gallic charm, "Oui, mais une petite Aventure." Having scorned its true Adventure cred he did say he thought the 2010-13 GSA was one of their best. Anyway, everyone knows that if you really want to go further than the shops best to be on an 1150. Or the old 100GS or 80GS.
Sad but true.

 

[Bendy toy]

BMW seem to swap out large parts rather than repair. Seems to be their policy.
Final drives like the old bevel box diffs in cars need special tools to rebuild and a lot of experience. So it's down to people like Mike or throw away the old FD.

 

[Bendy toy]

Another thought. The final drives in cars live axle especially but also independent have the shafts to each wheel to absorb a great deal of the shock loads hitting the crown wheel and pinion. They also have lots of space for oil so there is less chance of it getting centrifuged away from bearings in the middle of the case (wheel and pinion nose bearings). BMW solved the former with grease packed bearings but they have no way to solve the shock loading as the bike has a direct connection to the wheel/tyre.

That all said the Diversion 900 with its bog standard Japanese final drive box (that seems to have been around since the Honda GL1000 and CX500) just keep on going. The big differences are

• Double sided swing arm
• Wheels with normal bearings like any other bike
• Rubber cush drive between wheel and final drive
• Brake disc carried on wheel
• Torque reaction (that pushes back wheel down on the airheads) controlled by rising rate suspension linkage. The 900 hammers its suspension "knuckle" bearings.

Its not as pretty but its certainly good engineering.
Some might point out the reduced power but the XJ weighs about the same as an R1200GSA and makes about 90bhp or more with aftermarket pipes.

The snag is 900 so boring, not very well equipped and built down to a low price. A good workhorse but for all it's faults, the GS is a much nicer ride.

 

[Sgt Bilco]

Anyway, everyone knows that if you really want to go further than the shops best to be on an 1150. Or the old 100GS or 80GS.
Sad but true.

That's an urban myth and just not true. 11**'s have had their share of bearing failure but their saving grace is they are easier to fix in any workshop.

To give you a dose of reality, I've done 6 big trips with around 60 GS's or various models from 1100's, 1150's, all ages of 1200's and WC's. The only FD issues we've had are with 11**'s. We get a bit of misting from 1200 outer seals but that's no problem and is down to heat and/or altitude and we never change them on the road. We go a wee bit further than the shops and these bikes go through every type of weather and terrain you can imagine.

The only FD issue I've had in around 220,000 miles on 3 GS's is on my old 1100 and the FD lunched itself on the side of the road in California.

The way to get round FD's issues is budget for a rebuild now and again as part of your service schedule and you'll be good to go. I treat it as a service item and at £350 a pop, it's cheaper than regular chains and sprockets I reckon. It isn't bombproof and is definitely a weak link but in 120,000 miles on my current 1200GSA, I've had 2 rebuilds and never an issue.

 

[mikeyboy]

BMW seem to swap out large parts rather than repair. Seems to be their policy.
Final drives like the old bevel box diffs in cars need special tools to rebuild and a lot of experience. So it's down to people like Mike or throw away the old FD.

The main reason dealers swap units rather than rebuild is more likely down to liability issues,if a rebuilt unit develops a fault,they then "own" the problem,they will not get paid for any rectification work ,
They are far happier to fit a new unit,get paid for the parts and labour all backed up with warranty from the factory.
Have a think about the timescales on the flange recall,bmw have known about the issue with the alloy flanges prior to 2010
As the steel flanges started to be fitted around that time,why has it taken 5 years to recall the bikes?
My theory;
BMW's warranty partners would have been hit with some horrendous costs if they had recalled the bikes straight away,
The dealers would have to advise any owners of bikes that had worn bearings etc,the customer is not worried as the bike has extended warranty cover.
As it is ,the dealer just informs the customer and recommends a new unit,the bikes affected by the recall are all a minimum of 5 years old now so are highly unlikely to have an extended warranty on them any more.
Just my ramblings

 

[Bendy toy]

Mike's "ramblings" certainly make a lot of sense.
It will be interesting to see what the BMW dealer makes of my FD with about 3K miles since Mike worked his magic

 

[Rob-Roamin]

The main reason dealers swap units rather than rebuild is more likely down to liability issues,if a rebuilt unit develops a fault,they then "own" the problem,they will not get paid for any rectification work ,
They are far happier to fit a new unit,get paid for the parts and labour all backed up with warranty from the factory.
Have a think about the timescales on the flange recall,bmw have known about the issue with the alloy flanges prior to 2010
As the steel flanges started to be fitted around that time,why has it taken 5 years to recall the bikes?
My theory;
BMW's warranty partners would have been hit with some horrendous costs if they had recalled the bikes straight away,
The dealers would have to advise any owners of bikes that had worn bearings etc,the customer is not worried as the bike has extended warranty cover.
As it is ,the dealer just informs the customer and recommends a new unit,the bikes affected by the recall are all a minimum of 5 years old now so are highly unlikely to have an extended warranty on them any more.
Just my ramblings

Hello Mike

I am advised that you are the "go to man" on BMW final drives and hope you can shed some light on questions that I have posted elsewhere in this forum

I have a 2011 twin cam with 90000 kms on the clock and am considering some FD and driveshaft preventative maintenance before heading out on an extended trip (probably cover 15000 kms)

Have you done a rebuild on a cam head FD (post April 2010 steel flange and breather type)?
If so can you confirm whether the main bearing is lubricated by the crown wheel oil bath?
If the bearing is oil lubricated do you consider this a design upgrade that will extend the lifespan between replacement of the bearings

Before this trip I intend to get the driveshaft universals replaced and have also discovered the left side pivot bearing (needle sleeve) needs replacement
I am trying to make a risk assessment on the FD (no signs of imminent failure at present) and my gut feel is that an oil bath lubricated bearing will outlast a sealed greased bearing?

I would appreciate any information you may wish to share

Rob

 

[grr442]

32,000

 

[Bendy toy]

This show's what's involved in a FD rebuild.

http://mail.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/166875-The-inside-of-my-FD

 

[Roger GSA]

Barnstormer replaced mine recently at 15900 miles on an 08 GSA said it need doing whilst it was in for wheel flange recall.

 

[mikeyboy]

Hello Mike

I am advised that you are the "go to man" on BMW final drives and hope you can shed some light on questions that I have posted elsewhere in this forum

I have a 2011 twin cam with 90000 kms on the clock and am considering some FD and driveshaft preventative maintenance before heading out on an extended trip (probably cover 15000 kms)

Have you done a rebuild on a cam head FD (post April 2010 steel flange and breather type)?
If so can you confirm whether the main bearing is lubricated by the crown wheel oil bath?
If the bearing is oil lubricated do you consider this a design upgrade that will extend the lifespan between replacement of the bearings

Before this trip I intend to get the driveshaft universals replaced and have also discovered the left side pivot bearing (needle sleeve) needs replacement
I am trying to make a risk assessment on the FD (no signs of imminent failure at present) and my gut feel is that an oil bath lubricated bearing will outlast a sealed greased bearing?

I would appreciate any information you may wish to share

Rob

Hi rob, firstly let me apologise for the delay responding to your questions as I have only just spotted your post.
I have rebuilt quite a few of the last generation final drives.
Most of them had pinion bearing wear and some had covered less than 30k miles,
This was down to lubrication failure so I suspect the oil quantity is still not sufficient or oil changes not carried out regularly enough.
One customers bike had covered 18k, and had popped in for me to change his f/d oil prior to a trip to Italy
As I removed the speed sensor I noticed a chunk of steel stuck to it
It turned out to be part of the main wheel / crown wheel bearing cage,the bearing cage would have almost certainly collapsed part way through his trip
So it would appear that even the last twinccam bikes will need attention to their f/d,s at some point,.
Regular oil changes are the best way to spot impending problems

 

[Bendy toy]

Patzx12 had what looked like oil shortage issues with the older FD and its 30mm pinion bearing so its not been solved even though the bearing was taken to 32mm. Maybe the FD casing baffles were re deigned to better spread the oil but who knows if BMW would bother.

I think Mike's experience of failed bearings on later FDs hints that the 180ml level is marginally low. At oil change I use 200ml with no signs of oil getting blown out of seals and its been countered around town and blasted down the motorway at "making progress" sorts of speeds. Ive wondered if 220ml would really do any harm.