PanzerRider
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If you put an Akra header and end can on, which is better, a Hilltop tune or installing the Powercommander V and AutoTune (Dual Channel)?
Hilltop vs Powercommander V and AutoTune (Dual Channel)?
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Deleted account 190920001
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If you dump the auto tune and get a proper setup at your nearest dynojet dyno I would say they are equal in performance and cost terms. Dual channel auto tune is a chunk of cash and not really needed once setup. No harm in using it though if you want to invest in it.
I have had several bikes with PC's on them. You are talking £330 + Dyno set up cost. After fitting a PC to my Versys and going to Dynojet approved dyno it took over an hour and even then he said he was just guessing what to change. Was hard to spot the difference. Took my GS LC to Geoff and took him less than 15 mins to sort. Difference was apparent in 50 yds from leaving his workshop.
Took the PC off the Versys and had it Hilltopped. Loads better than a PC. Would never go back to a PC.
Took the PC off the Versys and had it Hilltopped. Loads better than a PC. Would never go back to a PC.
Some people like the idea that the auto tune "continually adjusts to suit their riding sale and conditions".
They must think they're in BSB or something...........
Some people like the idea that the auto tune "continually adjusts to suit their riding sale and conditions".
They must think they're in BSB or something...........
Having soent thousands of pounds buying a bike whose very advanced engine management systems does much the same thing, every time they ride their bike on their bimbles or hoons..... All for 'free'.
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I think the lesson there is the person doing the dyno work was garbage. If he didnt know what he should be changing he shouldnt be doing the job!
JimDiesel
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Speak to Geoff at Hilltop, his remap self analyses and adjusts accordingly every time you ride I've heard and seen 20+bhp and 12-15ib/in torque gains on people's bikes as well as smoothing out, where else could you get those gains for the money??
I recently had my LC engine 'Tuned' by Hilltop, with impressive results. Not only on the Dyno Graph, but also on the road.
My bike is smoother, gruntier, quicker and faster...
Before - Lumpy and a bit Lean
And After...lovely smooth curves, no flat spots and a huge dollop of bottom-end torque.
BTW, Geoff also remapped my Ducati, and the fueling was shockingly bad on that.
My bike is smoother, gruntier, quicker and faster...
Before - Lumpy and a bit Lean
And After...lovely smooth curves, no flat spots and a huge dollop of bottom-end torque.
BTW, Geoff also remapped my Ducati, and the fueling was shockingly bad on that.
Yonkyo, Graph looks great but I see that it starts at 2000rpm my bike feels weak and slightly lumpy in slow moving traffic from 1500 rpm, can you feel if your bike is smoother all the way down the rev range ie below where the graph starts, say in really slow moving traffic etc just above tick-over?
Yes dyno's read from 2krpm.
My bike now runs and pulls cleanly all the way from 1500rpm, and is much nicer doing low speed stuff.
I'm using a higher gear for everything now, so maneuvers i did in 2nd gear, I now use 3rd.... 1st gear is almost redundant.
Blimey, 1500rpm, I am not surprised it feels lumpy.
There is a good reason the graph starts at 2000rpm, you should not be riding below that engine speed.
1. You are on the verge of stalling (dangerous)
2. You are labouring the engine (harmful)
3. If you need instant acceleration it won't be there (dangerous)
These engines like to be at 2500 rpm plus at 1500rpm the engine is fighting itself, that is what you are feeling, it is nothing to do with fuelling.
JimDiesel
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Yonko,
Do you have standard can/system on yours? Or end can, or full system with de-cat??
Do you have standard can/system on yours? Or end can, or full system with de-cat??
Stock RTLC with just an Akra Can.
PanzerRider
Registered user
Well I am an expat who now lives in Colorado and I am not lucky enough to have a Hilltop! I ride anywhere from 5000ft to 12,500ft on one ride with big temp variations. I thought that the Power Commander V plus Autotune (because of the huge altitude, barometric and temp changes) would be the way to go.
The problem here isn't the PC. It was the guy setting it up.
People tend to associate 'Crap result' with 'Crap product' without considering the possibility of 'Crap work ethic'.
This is exactly what a Power Commander does NOT do.
If you install a PC, you (or whoever does the setup) need to have a specific goal in mind (extra power, improved fuel consumption, rectifying mistakes in the original fuel map, etc.).
Next, you need to obtain (or if necessary, create) a fuelling map that enriches or enleans accordingly, at every single point in the rev range. (And if you've ever had a look at a PC fuel map, you will realise that it doesn't just enrich or enlean according to revs - it does it according to load as well. Engine load is a dynamic factor that is a function of throttle position vs. revs vs. vehicle speed.
This is why most first-timers get the map wrong - they can't visualise the load they put on the engine under most circumstances vs. how their riding style translates into enrichment/enleanment requirements, and then translate that information into the enrichment/enleanment percentages that they need to create or adjust each point on the map.
All this is a long-winded way of saying that the PC does not choose 'the best' fuelling for your bike. It is not 'intelligent'. It can only do what you have told it to do - for better or for worse.
(Like most computers, really).
The Autotune module does not give you an easy way around this issue, either. All it's there for is to remove some of the guesswork by telling you whether the enrichment/enleanment results you have specified are being translated into specific Lambda (exhaust oxygen content) values, and therefore tell you whether your bike is or isn't fuelling according to the map you have specified. If it is, you have the option to accept the values. If, not, you can choose to alter the map and start again.
No it doesn't.
The BMS-X system itself fulfils this function. But it can only do so within factory-programmed parameters (or in this case, Geoff's replacement parameters, which are obviously adjusted to the requirements of the real world - as opposed to the requirements of politicians).
It would be very easy for BMW to achieve exactly the same result.
They have the technology and expertise, but they have to deal with political issues that we end-users don't. IIRC, the bikes are homologated to EURO 3 emissions specs. That means programming the engine management system to run the bike stupidly lean (and push the exhaust through a big, heavy, restrictive catalytic convertor). Because if the bikes don't comply with the stipulated specs, they cannot be legally sold. Simple as that.
The ideal stoichiometric ratio for petrol/air combustion is around 14.7:1. It is commonly accepted that you don't go higher than this because there are some fairly nasty potential consequences (engine overheating, pinging, burnt exhaust valves and/or piston crowns, and the engine pumping out poisonous nitrogen oxides).
BMW program the LC to run at anything up to 16:1. Nuff said.
When the vehicle manufacturer has to engineer built-in dodges (like grossly enleaning the fuelling at the 30% mark in the rev range so the bike can pass roadside emissions tests), you know we have a problem.
Not with the bike - but with the legislation.
As for max power vs. min fuel consumption: a petrol engine is an energy-conversion device. Like everything else in this world, it cannot escape the laws of thermodynamics.
You cannot get something for nothing. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.
Having had both a Hilltop'dbike and a PC I would go for the hilltop. This is less about the kit and more about the confidence in the person on the dyno. My Hilltop'd bike was much, much better in terms of results (both on GSA TCS). Probably costs more as you can't recover any outlay should you sell the bike but frankly I think the amounts we are talking about are minimal if you are looking at keeping the bike for any length of time.
Buy with confidence and don't worry about some of the technical nay sayers in some of the threads....bottom line, I have only met one person who was not impressed with the results from Hilltop and he got his money back with no problem. This against the very many on this and other forums who have been delighted. Forget the fancy end can....get decat headers plus Hilltop equals new bike. Best mod as far as I am concerned.
Buy with confidence and don't worry about some of the technical nay sayers in some of the threads....bottom line, I have only met one person who was not impressed with the results from Hilltop and he got his money back with no problem. This against the very many on this and other forums who have been delighted. Forget the fancy end can....get decat headers plus Hilltop equals new bike. Best mod as far as I am concerned.
As you are in Colorado I would give Beamer Boneyard a call about the BMW AF-XIED lambda offset devices. ( they used to sell power commander till these came along)
I have used PCV with auto tune, etc,etc, also been and had a talk with Geoff at hilltop.
I have had these lambda offset devices fitted for nearly 2 years , 20K miles and hours of road logged data with a dual channel innovate LM2 and GS911 I can recommend these.
They work, are easy to install, can be removed and fitted to another bike, and don't need any setting up.
BMW AF-XIED the future of fuel management is under your nose. or at least in Florida.
I have no connection with the company, I am just an anorak collecting data.
I have used PCV with auto tune, etc,etc, also been and had a talk with Geoff at hilltop.
I have had these lambda offset devices fitted for nearly 2 years , 20K miles and hours of road logged data with a dual channel innovate LM2 and GS911 I can recommend these.
They work, are easy to install, can be removed and fitted to another bike, and don't need any setting up.
BMW AF-XIED the future of fuel management is under your nose. or at least in Florida.
I have no connection with the company, I am just an anorak collecting data.
The PC can be removed though can't it? So, if you wanted to put the bike back to stock, you'd remove the PC, exhaust etc and still be ok for a blown engine warranty claim 
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