Lithium batteries - chargers

[AberdeenAngus]

Why do you need a special charger for LiPo bike batteries?
In order to make them a straight swap for Lead Acid, they have integral circuits to handle the charge.
It’s not as if you have to modify the bikes electrics to use them.

 

[JJH]

Why do you need a special charger for LiPo bike batteries?
In order to make them a straight swap for Lead Acid, they have integral circuits to handle the charge.
It’s not as if you have to modify the bikes electrics to use them.

its not the bikes electrics which causes the problem. No bikes charging system delebertley puts a higher charge to recover a very flat lead acid battery. Some modern chargers do and thats the problem. the lythium battery or its intergral circuts seemlingley cannot cope with it. Or is another tall story? Whos going to pay to find out? JJH

 

[AberdeenAngus]

its not the bikes electrics which causes the problem. No bikes charging system delebertley puts a higher charge to recover a very flat lead acid battery. Some modern chargers do and thats the problem. the lythium battery or its intergral circuts seemlingley cannot cope with it. Or is another tall story? Whos going to pay to find out? JJH

I understand that you shouldn’t use ‘conditioning’ chargers on them, but there’s no reason why you can’t use a bog standard floating 14v charger, is there?

 

[Slipperyeel]

Why do you need a special charger for LiPo bike batteries?
In order to make them a straight swap for Lead Acid, they have integral circuits to handle the charge.
It’s not as if you have to modify the bikes electrics to use them.

I think the bike electrics are ok - if I've understood it all correctly - because the bike simply delivers a continuous DC charge to the battery - regardless of battery type.

It's the chargers that apparently present the issue. In short, again if I've understood correctly, lithium batteries demands a smooth, continuous DC charge without all the fancy pulsing, high current, deliberate drain etc etc. Notably it's the high current cycle that seems to be the risk to the lithium batteries.

Like you, I'd like to think the on board lithium battery electronics would manage whatever comes in! But as JJH suggests is that the case but we're all being duped by the charger manufactures or anyone in the business of selling chargers!

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[AberdeenAngus]

I think the bike electrics are ok - if over understood it all correctly - because the bike simple delivers a continuous DC charge to the battery - regardless of battery type.

It's the chargers that apparently present the issue. In short, again if I've understood correctly, lithium batteries demands a smooth, continuous DC charge without all the fancy pulsing, high current, deliberate drain etc etc. Notably it's the high current cycle that seems to be the risk to the lithium batteries.

Like you, I'd like to think the on board lithium battery electronics would manage whatever comes in! But as JJH suggests is that the case but we're all being duped by the charger manufactures or anyone in the business of selling chargers!

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Yup. I think you’ll find that the special LiPo chargers are the same as old fashioned float chargers.

 

[JJH]

I understand that you shouldn’t use ‘conditioning’ chargers on them, but there’s no reason why you can’t use a bog standard floating 14v charger, is there?

I dont think so. Stay from so called smart chargers. JJH

 

[Slipperyeel]

I dont think so. Stay from so called smart chargers. JJH

Yep. It's the smart chargers that have troubled me...

I'm leaning to a basic, dedicated lithium charger. They're cheaper as well!

I've ordered the battery. So I'm committed



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[JJH]

Bike have a article on buying a Aerica Twin. Acording to them the newest one has a lythium battery very nice i thought till I read further. Seemengly if you jump start it the battery will be dondald ducked. Stuff and nonsence I say. Anybody who knows what their talking about like to join in. JJH

 

[wessie]

Bike have a article on buying a Aerica Twin. Acording to them the newest one has a lythium battery very nice i thought till I read further. Seemengly if you jump start it the battery will be dondald ducked. Stuff and nonsence I say. Anybody who knows what their talking about like to join in. JJH

You get a large current inrush from the donor battery. A lead acid battery will happily sink this current. I have no idea about the construction of a lithium battery or the chemistry involved as they did not exist when I went to college but from what I have read here, they LiPO battery does not like large currents going into them (they must cope with large currents flowing out to start a bike).

 

[Slipperyeel]

Bike have a article on buying a Aerica Twin. Acording to them the newest one has a lythium battery very nice i thought till I read further. Seemengly if you jump start it the battery will be dondald ducked. Stuff and nonsence I say. Anybody who knows what their talking about like to join in. JJH

That is interesting, but I have an anecdotal story that might support your thoughts about it being rubbish...

A while back I borrowed my old man's car. Kept it over night after using it as intended to pick up family from the airport next day. This was summer time.

In the morning it refused to start, despite all lights appearing Ok on the dash. After frigging around a while I worked out id left the lights on - the ding dong warning for this is broken in my dad's car!

So, I trouble my neighbour to help jump start it. My neighbour is pretty impulsive and not good at discussing a plan . I discover quickly the battery in my old man's car is a relatively new lithium battery. My neighbour rocks up with his little diesel bmw, opens the boot (his car battery is in the back with the spare wheel). Before I know it, he's connected the batteries together and is back into his car revving the balls off it.

Old man's car started after a few tries. I was back on track.

So the Lithium battery took this abuse and all was just fine. In fact that was well over a year ago and that lithium battery continues to live without problems.

Maybe I was lucky but I think not. I am sure they need consideration and perhaps a different charger, but I just can't believe such a fragile product would get into the market if it couldn't survive being treated like 'conventional' lead acid battery. Maybe in years to come new, fragile batteries will arrive, but by then the market/consumer knowledge will have developed sufficiently.

I believe it is the onboard controllers for the batteries that prevent and protect. Which is why the rules for shipping lithium batteries varies depending on whether the batteries are connected to a device, batteries are on their own, etc etc. Additionally, this is why they can't be shipped with more than a 60% charge.

But I would still like to know more about how the controllers work and the truth about charging!




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[AberdeenAngus]

LiPo batteries are arranged so the cells discharge in series but must be charged individually.
On hobbyist LiPo batteries - you get a pair of hefty discharge leads, and a separate multipoint charging plug, for which you need a special charger.

On a vehicle LiPo battery, this is handled by internal circuits so all you see is a box with a +ve and -ve terminal, just like a lead acid battery.
While the cells can deliver tremendous discharge currents, they must be charged gently. The charge current is limited by this circuitry.
The same circuitry prevents 'in-rush' current if another battery is connected in parallel - as when you jump start.
Now while lead-acid batteries can briefly tolerate higher voltages than 12-14v, such as when you de-sulphate them, the circuits on LiPo batteries will not like that.
So - only use non-conditioning chargers for LiPo batteries i.e. simple float chargers.
To assure yourself that you are getting a suitable charger for LiPo batteries, by all means, use one that advertises itself as such - but all this means is that it is a simple charger, and should therefore be very cheap.

 

[Popell]

You get a large current inrush from the donor battery. A lead acid battery will happily sink this current. I have no idea about the construction of a lithium battery or the chemistry involved as they did not exist when I went to college but from what I have read here, they LiPO battery does not like large currents going into them (they must cope with large currents flowing out to start a bike).

If this is the case , then my idea of a lead axis battery and jump lead is perhaps not a great idea.

I have had a LiPo for a while now and have used a semi smart charger on it a number of times but it is never left connected.
I have a Ctek comfort connector Thant has 3 leds showing voltage level, if the Amber starts flashing , I’ll connect my charger for an hour or so. The digital voltage indicator on the charger shows charging voltage and it rises to 13.9 then drops back to 12.8 when complete.

Possibly jinxed myself now but no probs so far

 

[Rushy]

I briefly use to sell vehicle LiPO batteries a few years ago and what AAngus , JJH and several others say is true . You just need a basic , cheap charger. Also the instructions that come with them usually explain that they can take a much higher charge current than a conventional Motocycle battery too so you can use a cheap basic car charger kicking out several amps rather than a more expensive dedicated Motorcyle charger kicking out an amp or so.

Given a decent charge current a Motorcyle LiPO will also charge from fairly flat to around 80% charge in something like a matter of 10-15 mins or so . More than enough to spin a bike over .

A colleague carried a YTX12 LiPO sample around and despite having had it in his car for weeks he jump started a dead Harley riders bike with it easily once. The rider said it span over much more quickly than it normally would with his 20amp battery .
The “cold cranking amps” is much higher on a LiPO than an equivalent lead acid.

 

[AberdeenAngus]

If this is the case , then my idea of a lead axis battery and jump lead is perhaps not a great idea.

I have had a LiPo for a while now and have used a semi smart charger on it a number of times but it is never left connected.
I have a Ctek comfort connector Thant has 3 leds showing voltage level, if the Amber starts flashing , I’ll connect my charger for an hour or so. The digital voltage indicator on the charger shows charging voltage and it rises to 13.9 then drops back to 12.8 when complete.

Possibly jinxed myself now but no probs so far

Think you'll be fine. So long as its not one of the chargers that can send higher voltage pulses to de-sulphate a battery.

 

[wessie]

Think you'll be fine. So long as its not one of the chargers that can send higher voltage pulses to de-sulphate a battery.

I have an Optimate 4 - this can be used via the canbus socket. If you stick the charger in canbus mode this disables desulphate mode as the canbus would get upset by that cycle. Therefore, I would suggest an Optimate 4 in canbus mode would be okay for a LiPo battery, whether or not you charge via the accessory socket or a direct connection to the baattery

 

[knutk]

I have an Optimate 4 - this can be used via the canbus socket. If you stick the charger in canbus mode this disables desulphate mode as the canbus would get upset by that cycle. Therefore, I would suggest an Optimate 4 in canbus mode would be okay for a LiPo battery, whether or not you charge via the accessory socket or a direct connection to the baattery

Quoting the manual: "The low voltage PULSE desulfation mode remains active, to recover a discharged battery that remains connected to vehicle wiring"

The manual does not specify the Low voltage. Seem to recall it's around 15V +/-. Anyway, the charger still pulses the voltage, which is not good for the Lithium batteries.

 

[Bendy toy]

LiPo batteries are arranged so the cells discharge in series but must be charged individually.
On hobbyist LiPo batteries - you get a pair of hefty discharge leads, and a separate multipoint charging plug, for which you need a special charger.

On a vehicle LiPo battery, this is handled by internal circuits so all you see is a box with a +ve and -ve terminal, just like a lead acid battery.
While the cells can deliver tremendous discharge currents, they must be charged gently. The charge current is limited by this circuitry.
The same circuitry prevents 'in-rush' current if another battery is connected in parallel - as when you jump start.
Now while lead-acid batteries can briefly tolerate higher voltages than 12-14v, such as when you de-sulphate them, the circuits on LiPo batteries will not like that.
So - only use non-conditioning chargers for LiPo batteries i.e. simple float chargers.
To assure yourself that you are getting a suitable charger for LiPo batteries, by all means, use one that advertises itself as such - but all this means is that it is a simple charger, and should therefore be very cheap.

DO NOT risk a Lead Acid spec Optimate in a LiFePo4. The boost voltage and desulphation modes will kill the lithium.

LiPO (Lithium POlymer) as used in computers and power tools are not the same tech as LiFePo4 (LiFe) as used in starter batteries. LiPO are wet cells needing very controlled charging systems. LiFe are dry cells and far less fussy. They work fine with lead acid charging systems used in 12V vehicles.

A standard car battery charger will do the job just fine but only to 95%. If you really must have that last 5% you'll need a special charger. LiFe starter batteries have built in circuits which disconnect the battery cells under excessively low voltage. That protects against it going too flat, but if it's left even longer the cells will continue to self discharge to death. Some have high voltage protection as well.

I allowed mine to go flat due to bike being parked. It recharged just fine in parallel with the car battery. A run on the bike topped it up nicely.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries