Oil in coolant??

[Antiquebiker]

Evening all,
Changed the spark plugs today on my 2008 F650GS twin.
When I removed the air filter I noticed a lot of fluid in the airbox. Looked like coolant, contaminated with oil.
Moving on, when I removed the engine breather pipe there was a lot of thick milky fluid coming from it.
On checking the coolant header tank it was up to the min mark with a thick oily sludge.
I use the bike daily on a 10 mile commute and have expierienced no problems with cooling. Engine warms up as it should and temperature gauge indicates normal.
I drained the system and emptied the headertank. What came out was like a very thick brown sludge, nothing that resembles coolant.
I flushed the system and refilled the rad with fresh coolant. Ran the engine up to temp. and unscrewed the bolt on the waterpump to let the air out.
Engine run with no problems, fan kicked in when it should, went for a short ride and temp gauge indicated normal.
Only problem seems to be the engine gets hot but radiator stays cold. So when fan kicks in they have no effect on cooling the engine during tickover.
My first thoughts are head gasket but before embarking on major surgery has anyone any other ideas I could check? Possible blocked radiator?
Any help or advice much appreciated.
Cheers,
Rob

 

[AberdeenAngus]

Does sound like a head gasket......I'm afraid.

 

[Antiquebiker]

AberdeenAngus, I think you could be right.
I had a thought last night. I'm going to change the gasket in the heat exchanger as a last try. If this has failed this would allow oil/coolant to become contaminated.
Will let you know how it goes.
Fingers crossed dealer has one in stock.

 

[tadhgocuilleain]

The cold rad could just be trapped air. I'd sort that out first. I wouldn't rush into major surgery, but monitor the condition of the coolant. When's the last time you saw the coolant before you noticed the sludge in it? Has it happened over a long period of time, or suddenly? Another symptom of head gasket failure is white "smoke" from the exhaust (it's actually water vapour from the coolant).

 

[Antiquebiker]

Thanks tadhgocuilleain.
No white smoke, thank goodness.
I do keep my eye on levels but it's quite difficult to see the quality of the coolant without removing the right hand panel.
I have noticed the oil has degraded recently, hence doing the plugs yesterday, next job was oil and filter.
As I say, heat exchanger gasket and then rad flush.

 

[Micky]

The 650/700/800 800 twin engines are very tough cookies indeed

I had a stone in my radiator in Pakistan, we had to keep moving, we were under armed escort, the fan didn't cut in and the bike spewed coolant up all over the screen and on me. I feared for the head gasket, the temperature gauge was off the scale

Topped it up the next morning and the bike has run perfectly since ...

Your short journey's are the problem, without a doubt. Does the bike run OK? What was the colour of the plugs when you took them out?

Once you've refilled the system and bled it, when cool just nip the rubber tube between the radiator cap and the header plastic expansion tank, and remove the radiator cap, make sure that the radiator is full to the top ... if not you'll get an air lock in the system! You need to nip the tube to the expansion tank otherwise when you remove the radiator cap the header tank will just empty itself.

Good luck

 

[Antiquebiker]

Thanks for this. Bike runs fine with no loss of power. Plugs were dry and not sooty in any way. I will check radiator level again when I get home. Both dipstick and breather pipe had signs of milky slime so still think water and oil are getting together somewhere.


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[Micky]

Thanks for this. Bike runs fine with no loss of power. Plugs were dry and not sooty in any way. I will check radiator level again when I get home. Both dipstick and breather pipe had signs of milky slime so still think water and oil are getting together somewhere.


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How many miles has the bike done?

I still reckon it's those short ten mile commutes ... the engine doesn't get really warmed through. It's condensation! You need to change the oil, and the water like what you have done, wipe out all the condensation mayonnaise from the air box and then go and give the bike a rait good old fashioned thrashing for seventy or eighty miles ... then have a look.

If you get back OK then you don't have a problem

If you don't get back OK then you will have found your problem

 

[Antiquebiker]

Hi Mate. Bike has done just short of 20k. I've had the bike three years and never had any problems. I have cleaned out airbox and breather pipe. I will do as you suggest, oil change and rad top up then a damm good thrashing!! Will let you know what happens, could be a long walk home!


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[Smug]

If there is the mayonaise in the oil filler cap then it can be condensation but if there is oil in the coolant then it will be a head gasket or a leak inside the engine between the coolant passages and the oil area.

 

[Bem]

Hi Mate. Bike has done just short of 20k. I've had the bike three years and never had any problems. I have cleaned out airbox and breather pipe. I will do as you suggest, oil change and rad top up then a damm good thrashing!! Will let you know what happens, could be a long walk home!

The oil change will tell you everything - even pulling the dipstick (the one in the engine, not the one on the seat) should allow you to see if its a fulsome problem or, more likely, the short runs on top of limited maintenance before you got it eg bike is 2008 so should have had at least nine oil changes and four coolant changes by now.
My money is on condensation.
Thrash it like its stolen.

 

[Smug]

The oil change will tell you everything - even pulling the dipstick (the one in the engine, not the one on the seat) should allow you to see if its a fulsome problem or, more likely, the short runs on top of limited maintenance before you got it eg bike is 2008 so should have had at least nine oil changes and four coolant changes by now.
My money is on condensation.
Thrash it like its stolen.

How do you get oil sludge in the coolant with condensation?

 

[Schtum]

How do you get oil sludge in the coolant with condensation?

With great difficulty unless the head gasket has blown, as you suggested. It it were me, I'd be sniffing the radiator header tank after the engine has been running. The smell of combustion gases in the coolant is fairly unmistakeable.

 

[Antiquebiker]

Thanks for all your help guys.
I called into my nearest (60 mile round trip) main dealer today to get a heat exchanger gasket and assorted O rings.
I thought this could be a possible cause as the gasket seperates oil and coolant.
Unfortunatly, none of the parts required were in stock. The guy did say that these failed quite a lot on early bikes, unlike head gaskets. He did say they have never changed a head gasket on a 800 twin.
I telephoned Motoworks to order the parts from them and was advised not to touch the oil cooler as it can be very difficult to get it to seal up again. Very helpful chap, thinks condensation is the problem.
I must admit this is turning into a real pain as should it turn out to be head gasket thats an engine out job, big bucks!

 

[batman1]

Hi Mate. Bike has done just short of 20k. I've had the bike three years and never had any problems. I have cleaned out airbox and breather pipe. I will do as you suggest, oil change and rad top up then a damm good thrashing!! Will let you know what happens, could be a long walk home!


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I wouldn't give it a damn good thrashing before you have made sure that your radiator is not partially blocked up with some of that sludge. If your engine is getting hot but your rad isn't, it could be that the rad is partially blocked in which case the thrashing might work out quite costly. You might need to flush it with some form of detergent based flushing medium.
However should you decide with the thrashing, keep your eye on the temp gauge...also, is the rad cooling fan cutting in and out normally?

 

[Phil-H]

It won't be condensation if you are getting oil in your coolant.
Heat exchangers can & do fail (oil & water mix into both systems) & that makes a proper mess of the cooling system - repeated flushing with a non foaming detergent, with careful flushing of the radiator & small bore pipes.

If you can remove the coolant hoses from the exchanger & join them, effectively bypassing the heat exchanger you will find oil weeping out of the stubs where the coolant hoses should have attached when the bike is running.

Don't underestimate the clogging properties of that treacle like stuff, make sure the cooling system is thoroughly flushed & all is working correctly before any longish trips or good thrashings....

If it is the heat exchanger, it's not the end of the world but it takes an age to get rid of all traces of oil!

Phil
Ps, I have no specific experience of the 650/700/800 motors so some of this may not be relevant!

 

[Antiquebiker]

Cheers Guys, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Quick update, took the bike to work today 11.45 temp 11.5 degrees. Bike felt fine, no loss of power and no smoke. Temp guage at normal and on arrival at work 12.05 and 6.5 miles radiator was hot.
Journey home 01.00 temp 4 degrees. Bike felt fine with no loss of power and no smoke. Temp guage normal arrived home 01.10 radiator cold.
I am still thinking heat exchanger. I am on shift now until next Monday then I think I will strip out the heat exchanger, clean it out and replace gasket. Oil and filter change and yet more new coolant and then take it for a decent run.
If this doesn't work then it's a litre of unleaded and a box of matches!!
You update soon as done.