Oil Seal Removal, How?

[liamor]

Have been suffering clutch slip on my 2002 R1150R (like a GS but for Short Arses!). As bike only has 12000 miles I reason it may be oil contamination.

I've started taking it apart. I have the rear frame lifted and ready to take out gearpox/paralever but couldn't resist pulling the clutch slave cylinder to have a look. Here's what I found!

http://picasaweb.google.com/liamoregan/SlaveCylinder?feat=directlink

On pulling the slave cylinder out a load of brown smelly oil came out and pooled on the bikestand. Must be 15-20 cc of fluid. Sight glass on Clutch master cylinder shows fluid level is O.K. (I have never had to top it up) so my suspicion is now on the oil seal behind the slave.

My question is how do I get it out? It looks like a gouging job, but I would like to be corrected!

Should I also consider taking the oil seal at the other end of the shaft out?

By the way when I took the starter motor off I was able to take a look at the clutch housing which looks completely dry.

Having read many of the post here about clutch changes I hope you GS'ers can help me.

 

[ianboydsnr]

have you pulled out the clutch rod, grip the end with a set of pliers and pull it out, is the felt bit covered in oil, the seal is a dig out and a right pain to do, mine took a couple of hours to get out

 

[DaveGSCymro]

Search on here for it, think I read somewhere about drilling a couple of small holes in the seal and then self tappers to get a grip with and pull it out.

 

[liamor]

DaveGSCymro- Yea, I remember reading that thread in the past. Damned if I can find it now. I'd like to read it again before driving a couple of self tappers into the unknown!

Ianboydsnr - Yes I figured out I could take out the rod. What did you use to dig out the seal? I guess the housing needs to be very clean before pressing the new seal in to place. Do I nead to coat it in grease to ease it in?

 

[MattW]

I've not changed this seal on an 1150, but if it's the same pattern as the other seals on these bikes the the self tapper technique is fairly straightforward (the seal should have a brown steel coloured reinforcing ring on the face you can see - I think your pictures show this). It'll probably be a bit tricky as you are working down a tunnel but us a sharp but it goes something like this:

Clean up the area as best you can with rags / brake cleaner etc - you want to be able to see what you're doing.
Use a fine centre punch to dot the reinforcing ring in two places (don't be tempted to try and drill it without centre punching it).
Select two small self tappers and a sharp drill for them (try this out on some scrap first - the seal is not the place to be experimenting )
Drill the reinforcing ring where you centre punched it - be careful here - I'm not sure what's behind this seal - you don't want to drill through it into something important (probably a bearing). You also need to be careful you don't slip sideways into the shaft (pushrod?) or the seal housing. Be careful of the pressure you use when drilling and be ready for it to break through - ideally you want to 'just' break through the surface of the ring (reduces the chance of driving swarf into where you don't want it).
Stick your self tappers to a screwdriver with some sticky grease and start them into the drilled seal ring.
Then take some long nose pliers, grab the self tapper heads and work the seal out. I couldn't get two sets of pliers into the seal void so I worked on each screw head in turn. Eventually it just popped out suddenly and I was left holding a seal in my pliers.

Some pics of me doing this on my 1100 gearbox output shaft seal:

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/di6A7tmWWUk12S1wV-qlMA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_SSn2CtCOKnU/ScdUD3s67CI/AAAAAAAABaU/WWkFiA0fNGY/s800/IMG_4341.JPG" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/0ylzlAcD2cGaxCi0eLWxzw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_SSn2CtCOKnU/ScdTGtQKC4I/AAAAAAAABVA/xw8Jx8LpBDM/s800/matt-02.jpg" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/OttIy6CacrRUcsPv_l1gww?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_SSn2CtCOKnU/ScdTGfETT3I/AAAAAAAABU4/nK0QhI7t2Hk/s800/matt-03.jpg" /></a>

As I say above - I only have an 1100 and I haven't done your seal replacement, so bear this in mind. However the above is the technique if the self tapper method is appropriate - Steptoe or someone will be able to confirm.

 

[ianboydsnr]

DaveGSCymro- Yea, I remember reading that thread in the past. Damned if I can find it now. I'd like to read it again before driving a couple of self tappers into the unknown!

Ianboydsnr - Yes I figured out I could take out the rod. What did you use to dig out the seal? I guess the housing needs to be very clean before pressing the new seal in to place. Do I nead to coat it in grease to ease it in?

I speared it with a screwdriver, then prised it out, but it did come out in several bits after a very long time, hopefully there is an easier way

I dont think there is enough space to drill and use a self tapper in the seal.

 

[Steptoe]

I have the rear frame lifted and ready to take out gearpox/paralever but couldn't resist pulling the clutch slave cylinder to have a look.


Should I also consider taking the oil seal at the other end of the shaft out?

By the way when I took the starter motor off I was able to take a look at the clutch housing which looks completely dry.

.

You have to remove the slave cylinder to get the gearbox off anyway ??
And it's fairly usual to have an amount of brown substance.
You'll only know if any of the seals need replacing once you've removed the gearbox and have the clutch in your hands and can check for oil contamination - if none of the seals are leaking leave them alone. There's been countless cases of people replacing seals working perfectly and to have the new seals leak due to not replacing them correctly.

I've not changed this seal on an 1150, but if it's the same pattern as the other seals on these bikes the the self tapper technique is fairly straightforward

- Steptoe or someone will be able to confirm.

Self tapper method won't work on this tiny small well recessed down a tunnel with an inner sleeve seal.

 

[MattW]

Self tapper method won't work on this tiny small well recessed down a tunnel with an inner sleeve seal.

Thanks Steptoe.

 

[liamor]

We did a little test with the slave cylinder yesterday. Cleaned it up and dried it out totally. Fitted it to gearbox and Cable tied the clutch lever down and left it overnight to see what would happen.

Took out slave this morning and inspected it. Absolutely no sign of any fluid weeping out. Next we drained the gearbox into a measuring jug. Got just over 600 ml. The manual seems to suggest that the oil change volume is 800 ml. More evidence!

Some people I have spoke with have suggested that the fluid that came out when we took out the slave was in fact clutch fluid. I had a little difficulty with this as there was about 100/130 ml of fluid. looking at the clutch hydraulics I can't imagine that there is more than a cupful of fluid (if that) in the whole circuit. If I lost (say) 1/3 of my hydraulic fluid surely I would need to refill the master cylinder. The master cylinder level never seems to change and I have never had to top it up.

It seems reasonable that the oil we found is from the gearbox (same awful smell, similar (but not identical) colour. Inspection of the clutch and housing shows contamination of the plate which looks like it came down the actuation shaft. All the other seals seem to be doing their job and so I will not touch them but I'm going to change the seal behind the slave cylinder.

Not looking forward to the job. Thanks for the tutorial MattW however on this occasion I am with Steptoe. I bow to his undoubted knowledge and experience.

Steptoe, how should I best remove this seal? ianboydesnr's suggestion of gouging it out with a screwdriver looks to be the only option. Im afraid of damaging the seal housing or the input shaft. Any wise words?

Here are today's pictures.

http://picasaweb.google.com/liamoregan/GearboxOutToday?feat=directlink

Thanks for all your help.

 

[ianboydsnr]

If I had one, I would spike the seal using a pointy thing like a pointy drift, either side of the seal and screw in a slide hammer

 

[MattW]

Thanks for the tutorial MattW however on this occasion I am with Steptoe. I bow to his undoubted knowledge and experience.

Absolutely.
As I said, having an 1100 (cable clutch) I've not done this seal.
Steppers is the man for any advice about this.