R1300gs v KTM 1390

I would not want the auto-clutch as low speed manouvres and really tight alpine bends often require / benefit from moderating the clutch, and a deft bit of letting the clutch in or out at the right time / in a particular situation can be the difference between staying upright or having to pick your bike up and spend a fortune on some bodywork / exhaust can.

The ability for a bike to shift gear automatically does not bother me too much, as long as I can turn it off and change manually,a gear lever being my preference as that is how I have done it for the last 40 years, but the point is I want to get the power delivery to my preference, sometimes low throttle and low revs to gently ride away, but sometimes I enjoy a bloody great handful at low revs and let the Torque be felt and hurl me forward - and not have the bike kick down 3 gears and scream senseless etc.

My desire can change from one gearshit to the next depending on the road, what is in front of me at the time, and although predominantly I change up between 4k and 6k (probably 99% of the time on an open road) it is not always the case, if the bike can "learn" (AI will be next) your "riding style" it could probably get pretty close to changing as you do - just without the "whims" some of us have - and that is where a manual override comes in.

Like adaptive cruise, I can see auto-box being best for heavier traffic and commuting journeys predominantly and I would use it for that if available and almost certainly turn it of on nice twisties, an back on maybe if I was feeling knackered.

When I think of my touring I can see it being in Auto for the ~150 miles of almost exclusively dual carriageway and motorway miles to the Tunnel, and the 2-4 hours I typically spend clearing the clutter of Northern France after leaving the train, before turning it off for the X-country back roads that follow, but it may stay on here and there in "cruising" / "touring" mode, before being firmly ignored once in the Ardennes / Vosges / Black Forest / Alps / Pyrenees until the return journey.

My biggest put-off (apart from the cost of the bikes) is the additional shit to go wrong, all I had in ~25k on my 1190 was issues with error codes and after a service some of the clock display not working. On my 1290 I have replaced a fuel sender (they all do that sir) as well as a couple of error codes, one due to the battery getting a bit past it and causing an error on startup (needing dealer reset) and once when I turned the bike off mid way through a suspension adjustment and confused it - another trip to the dealer....

...and most recently a "brake switch failure" - which was a false alarm, not sure quite how the logic works as the switch was operating fine, had a mate behind me all day with the error coming and going and always confirmed the brake light was working, post replacement the old switch tested fine on a meter, even with much flexing of the cable and trying to get a failure situation, maybe the resistance in the wires increased a few % in the 7 years since new and the over-sensitive self-test system was the real issue....

....and this is the problem, with each new feature there is a host of electronics, sensors, solonoids, wiring all waiting to age a little, deteriorate slightly - or totally fail, the latter is probably easy enough to diagnose, but potentially expensive to fox, but some codes do not give an accurate report to the computer and you end up paying for a dealer to start randomly fitting sensors, switches, ECU's and wiring looms in a bid to fix a fault - all at your expense.

Now if KTM / BMW offered a bike with a traditional key, basic cruise (it is handy, and with fly-by-wire throttles just a few extra lines of computer code) basic ABS (no IMU to fuck up one day) no TC - I can use my right wrist and restraint thank you, manual suspension - which can easily be services or replaced with high quality fully rebuildeable conventional kit for a fraction of the cost, basic display - maybe some LCD segment like the 1190 clocks, but not the fucking laptops they fit now (and thieves love) - I can even check my stop lights work before / after each ride - in 40 years of riding I have never had a brake switch fail until this one did not fail but needed replacing anyway despite being fine, and without the additonal shift-cam and auto-boxes to go wrong I can see a very reliable machine if it was stripped of all that shit.

Basically go back about 10-15 years with the tech, knock £3k off the price and I am in, I was really keen on the CB1000GT until I heard it had semi-active suspension, until then I was half way to justifying one.
 
I'm pretty happy with what is being offered in the ASA option - after disliking it intently to begin with I came to realise that the auto option is smother than me around town and the quick shift option is much better than on a non ASA bike.
The only question I've not tested (I own a standard GS1300 non ASA) is what you're discussing above, creeping round a very tight mountain hairpin with an adverse camber and a lorry coming the other way - for example.
My preferred technique is to use Enduro and feather the clutch as much as I like / need to.

I'd love to hear from someone who's used it (ASA or alternatives) in these conditions - not fast knee down corners but slow technically challenging corners, where clutch control would seem essential.
Throw in some added weight in the panniers / or a pillion and some rain or loose grit in the mid corner for good measure.
 
I would not want the auto-clutch as low speed manouvres and really tight alpine bends often require / benefit from moderating the clutch, and a deft bit of letting the clutch in or out at the right time / in a particular situation can be the difference between staying upright or having to pick your bike up and spend a fortune on some bodywork / exhaust can.
I've not ridden BMW's auto box but have owned a couple Honda's with DCT and my comments are based on them. You're quite correct that being able to feather the clutch is useful, if not critical, and in those instances I wished for a clutch lever. Short of that, the best alternative with an automatic is to have extremely smooth engagement between disengaged and 1st gear engaged, and Honda have done that extraordinarily well with their DCT. This along with using just a little back brake gives almost the same effect as feathering a clutch. I find it interesting how Honda can map the fueling to be so smooth off idle on their DCT bikes yet make on-off-on throttling so jerky on many of their manual equipped motorcycles.


The ability for a bike to shift gear automatically does not bother me too much, as long as I can turn it off and change manually,a gear lever being my preference as that is how I have done it for the last 40 years, but the point is I want to get the power delivery to my preference, sometimes low throttle and low revs to gently ride away, but sometimes I enjoy a bloody great handful at low revs and let the Torque be felt and hurl me forward - and not have the bike kick down 3 gears and scream senseless etc.
Of course this is exactly what manual mode gives you. The exceptions to this is it won't let you do something that will harm the bike like letting you hold 5th gear at 10mph it'll downshift probably to 2nd. And as you come to a stop it'll disengage and drop to 1st. When I picked up my first DCT (1000 Africa Twin) I figured I'd want the optional (expensive) foot lever that I could use to shift manually but actually changed my mind on the ride home. The forefinger upshift and thump downshift buttons are precisely at the natural spot to use either sitting or standing on the pegs.
The same with paddle shifters, my truck has a ZF automatic with paddle shift right behind the steering wheel and my car is a traditional manual. I wouldn't want the truck's paddle shifters down on the console where a manual shifter would be, they're just easier to use and more natural at the steering wheel.

My desire can change from one gearshit to the next depending on the road, what is in front of me at the time, and although predominantly I change up between 4k and 6k (probably 99% of the time on an open road) it is not always the case, if the bike can "learn" (AI will be next) your "riding style" it could probably get pretty close to changing as you do - just without the "whims" some of us have - and that is where a manual override comes in.
I don't see how an automatic could learn exactly how you want it to shift w/o being able to see ahead what you see? As you slow down it doesn't know whether it's for a light that's now turned green or a hairpin turn coming up. The automatic program does do a pretty good job keeping you in the right gear most of the time, just like the better auto-boxes in many cars. But yes the override function being able to manually shift it in auto mode for that upcoming corner then let it take back over as you power through reverting back to auto mode is a delightful compromise.

Now if KTM / BMW offered a bike with a traditional key, basic cruise (it is handy, and with fly-by-wire throttles just a few extra lines of computer code) basic ABS (no IMU to fuck up one day) no TC - I can use my right wrist and restraint thank you, manual suspension - which can easily be services or replaced with high quality fully rebuildeable conventional kit for a fraction of the cost, basic display - maybe some LCD segment like the 1190 clocks, but not the fucking laptops they fit now (and thieves love) -

Basically go back about 10-15 years with the tech, knock £3k off the price and I am in, I was really keen on the CB1000GT until I heard it had semi-active suspension, until then I was half way to justifying one.

Amen!
I probably I posted my R1300GS purchase before but wanted a 2026 base model which cost $22K here and came about as you described above other than I believe BWM encumbered even it with a fob. But no radar braking, no pacing the car in front just traditional cruise, no active or up and down suspension, electrified luggage mounts, etc. The only one I could find was across the country in Arizona. Dealers around here said they never ordered base models because everyone wants the Premium Package and up. And ordering one will likely take 4 months.
My dealer said he would sell me a 2025, with a bunch of added stuff I don't want, at discount so being impulsive I bought it. It's a nice motorcycle but in retrospect I think I'd be happier had I ordered a base model.
 
I would not want the auto-clutch as low speed manouvres and really tight alpine bends often require / benefit from moderating the clutch, and a deft bit of letting the clutch in or out at the right time / in a particular situation can be the difference between staying upright or having to pick your bike up and spend a fortune on some bodywork / exhaust can.

The ability for a bike to shift gear automatically does not bother me too much, as long as I can turn it off and change manually,a gear lever being my preference as that is how I have done it for the last 40 years, but the point is I want to get the power delivery to my preference, sometimes low throttle and low revs to gently ride away, but sometimes I enjoy a bloody great handful at low revs and let the Torque be felt and hurl me forward - and not have the bike kick down 3 gears and scream senseless etc.

My desire can change from one gearshit to the next depending on the road, what is in front of me at the time, and although predominantly I change up between 4k and 6k (probably 99% of the time on an open road) it is not always the case, if the bike can "learn" (AI will be next) your "riding style" it could probably get pretty close to changing as you do - just without the "whims" some of us have - and that is where a manual override comes in.

Like adaptive cruise, I can see auto-box being best for heavier traffic and commuting journeys predominantly and I would use it for that if available and almost certainly turn it of on nice twisties, an back on maybe if I was feeling knackered.

When I think of my touring I can see it being in Auto for the ~150 miles of almost exclusively dual carriageway and motorway miles to the Tunnel, and the 2-4 hours I typically spend clearing the clutter of Northern France after leaving the train, before turning it off for the X-country back roads that follow, but it may stay on here and there in "cruising" / "touring" mode, before being firmly ignored once in the Ardennes / Vosges / Black Forest / Alps / Pyrenees until the return journey.

My biggest put-off (apart from the cost of the bikes) is the additional shit to go wrong, all I had in ~25k on my 1190 was issues with error codes and after a service some of the clock display not working. On my 1290 I have replaced a fuel sender (they all do that sir) as well as a couple of error codes, one due to the battery getting a bit past it and causing an error on startup (needing dealer reset) and once when I turned the bike off mid way through a suspension adjustment and confused it - another trip to the dealer....

...and most recently a "brake switch failure" - which was a false alarm, not sure quite how the logic works as the switch was operating fine, had a mate behind me all day with the error coming and going and always confirmed the brake light was working, post replacement the old switch tested fine on a meter, even with much flexing of the cable and trying to get a failure situation, maybe the resistance in the wires increased a few % in the 7 years since new and the over-sensitive self-test system was the real issue....

....and this is the problem, with each new feature there is a host of electronics, sensors, solonoids, wiring all waiting to age a little, deteriorate slightly - or totally fail, the latter is probably easy enough to diagnose, but potentially expensive to fox, but some codes do not give an accurate report to the computer and you end up paying for a dealer to start randomly fitting sensors, switches, ECU's and wiring looms in a bid to fix a fault - all at your expense.

Now if KTM / BMW offered a bike with a traditional key, basic cruise (it is handy, and with fly-by-wire throttles just a few extra lines of computer code) basic ABS (no IMU to fuck up one day) no TC - I can use my right wrist and restraint thank you, manual suspension - which can easily be services or replaced with high quality fully rebuildeable conventional kit for a fraction of the cost, basic display - maybe some LCD segment like the 1190 clocks, but not the fucking laptops they fit now (and thieves love) - I can even check my stop lights work before / after each ride - in 40 years of riding I have never had a brake switch fail until this one did not fail but needed replacing anyway despite being fine, and without the additonal shift-cam and auto-boxes to go wrong I can see a very reliable machine if it was stripped of all that shit.

Basically go back about 10-15 years with the tech, knock £3k off the price and I am in, I was really keen on the CB1000GT until I heard it had semi-active suspension, until then I was half way to justifying one.
How do you know the statements you claim ?

Have you ridden a KTM 1390 Evo auto or a BMW R1300 GS ASA auto ?
 
Having put 3.5k on my SAS Evo, I love the auto box.But I ride it mainly in manual mode, using the buttons up and down.I've even removed the foot shift lever from the bike.
As its less unsettling to change by buttons imho.
The KTM system is very flexible, you have two choices for the auto box to run in re the shift changes, you can totally disable the throttle blip and kick down with the throttle (which court me out a couple of times)

Why do I use manual mode, because I can tell the bike when I want to change up or down and you can even come to a stop in fourth and it automatically cogs down the box for you if you forget.

Having just come back from the Spanish Pyrenees the manual mode in the mountains turn this bike into an absolute blast on the hairpins.Like the oil/air cooled GS it pops and farts like a good un on downshifts.
Watch the launch reviews of the Tracer AMT on youtube and all the journos loved that in manual mode.The SAS is the same but with an absolute beast of an engine.
Go try one you might like it or might not.? but give it a time and a chance.
 
Can we go back to KTM v BMW and not auto v manual please. Interested in the first but not the second.
 
The elephant in the room has to be that exhaust on the 1390. Never, never, seen anything as big on a motorcycle. Personal opinion, it also one ugly bike, from every angle.
 
The elephant in the room has to be that exhaust on the 1390. Never, never, seen anything as big on a motorcycle. Personal opinion, it also one ugly bike, from every angle.
I have in the past be tempted by KTM but as soon as I see one in the flesh 🤢.

Hopefully there will be a Husqvarna version of the same bike with less challenging looks
 
...and most recently a "brake switch failure" - which was a false alarm, not sure quite how the logic works as the switch was operating fine, had a mate behind me all day with the error coming and going and always confirmed the brake light was working, post replacement the old switch tested fine on a meter, even with much flexing of the cable and trying to get a failure situation, maybe the resistance in the wires increased a few % in the 7 years since new and the over-sensitive self-test system was the real issue....
Had this on my 1190.

I think you are probably right about a slight high resistance in the switch being the problem. Replace the switch and the issue will likely go away. It's a bit confusing as the brake light will activate even if the relevant switch is disconnected :unsure:
 
Had this on my 1190.

I think you are probably right about a slight high resistance in the switch being the problem. Replace the switch and the issue will likely go away. It's a bit confusing as the brake light will activate even if the relevant switch is disconnected :unsure:
I heard this and it is allegedly down to another pressure monitoring sensor or switch in the ABS unit, but my switch works 100% when tested on a meter, no amount of bending an twisting the wires can get a fault condition.

Back to the 1390, might have to try one, just so I know what I am missing out on, who knows I may feel the urge to retire a year later to cover the cost of one???
 
I have now tried a 1390 Evo, very impressive TBH, the clutchless system works very well, had no problem from thr very first pull away, would of been easier with a normal clutch - but I reckon after a few rides it would become second nature....

...The gearchange paddles not so much, did not like them at all, so very happy KTM have left a "gear lever", not that it levers anything as it just operates a switch inside like the paddles do, what is neat is firmly shutting the throttle also knocks the bike down a gear which is really useful if you just need to drop one cog, going down 2-3 gears for a tight bend repeatedly ramming the throttle shut feels weird (IMHO)

Apart from pull away, if using the gear lever it is pretty much like a conventional bike with QS, and the auto-option also works well enough, and for the lazy is quite good for just wafting along with minimal effort, but in twisties I prefer to choose the gear for each corner and change down as part of the braking process.

Compared to my 1st Gen 1290 Adventure S (2018MY) the biggest changes were a stock screen that works! and a huge amount of extra thrust, way more than a ~6% increase suggests it is crazy fast through the mid range and seems to always want to lift the front wheel, it feels more like 25% more powerful, a dyno curve comparison would be interesting as I am wondering if some of the difference is gearing (although top is identical going by RPM at 70mph) or maybe just....

...the traction control was allowing a lot more front wheel lift, so I now need to see if mine feels way quicker if I turn it off, but I was running this bike in "Street" and I always run mine in "Sport", but maybe mine in sport is holding the bike back quite a bit - however th enew bike has gained 100cc and VVT so you would expect some extra mid-range, but I was not expecting that much!

For riding the bike I prefer my screen layout, but the new one is really clear, and the menu options look great - and there are thousands of them, only had a brief flip through some menu's and they look amazing.

It also steers faster than mine - but so did the 2nd gen "ballbag" 1290S, and I don't think the chassis changed much from the last 1290 through to the 1390.

Must try a 1300GS now, one thing I can confirm in advance is the stock BMW seat is better, on the basis it cannot be any worse, hopping back onto my Ergo equipped 1290 was joyous after about 45 minutes on KTM's latest arse torturing effort.

Even by the time you have added a "comfort" (Read, what you would expect on a touring bike) seat and heated grips you would probably have a large chunk of change over the GS - even if you add the tech pack, and I am not sure I would need anything more than the basic electronics package (cruise / traction / suspension modes / QS / Auto-box etc)

4 year warranty probably more than covers most first owners period of ownership and gets you past the typical PCP timeline.
 
I don't see how an automatic could learn exactly how you want it to shift w/o being able to see ahead what you see? As you slow down it doesn't know whether it's for a light that's now turned green or a hairpin turn coming up. The automatic program does do a pretty good job keeping you in the right gear most of the time, just like the better auto-boxes in many cars. But yes the override function being able to manually shift it in auto mode for that upcoming corner then let it take back over as you power through reverting back to auto mode is a delightful compromise.
conventional automatic cars with slush boxes have had ant brain tech to pretend to adapt to driver style for 30+ years - its pathetic and would work millions of times better just to have it check the throttle application more cleverly

my auto car adapts this way - terribly, it makes it more and more lethargic if you drive gently but when you finally get a bit of clear road and particularly if you stand on it hard - it builds a need to rev and delay upshifts - the trouble is if conditions mean its game over, the box refuses to upshift and stays in a state of eagerness for at least for the next 5 miles (and you have to manually force it in to higher gears to get it to calm down for around 20 minutes)

as for BMWs since 2010 the conventional 8 speed ZF slush boxes on the cars links the changes to the sat nav map - and in doing so they threw 40% of pointless gear changing in a skip - to not have that tech on a 25k bike is ridiculous

and it would have taken basically nothing to link the shift patterns to the rider modes (eco and rain early shifts low revs, dynamic should have read the nav map, enduro should use the throttle position)
 
Honda uses an a-arm front on the Goldwing. And interestingly BMW doesn't use it on most of their motorcycles, only the 1300 GS/A and RT.
It's half about styling./packing and half about engineering.

For most in-line 2/3/4 cylinder bikes, the exhaust headers are where the Tele-lever attachment points would be. Not a problem with a Boxer.

For the R and RS models, the radiator is where the tele-lever attachment points would be. There is plenty of room under the GS and RT fairing panels to hide the radiators out to either side, but would look unusual on the R/RS (though that is where they were on the oil/air-cooled models)
 


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