remapping

[Bendy toy]

Fully agree that I have no experience with O2 sensor adjusting tools such as the AF XIED. But I have never claimed to know about these devices. I am however suspicious of any add on device PC included. In the end they are all add on fixes.

On the other hand with bikes having such compromised OEM maps (almost) anything has to be better.

The Power Commander (PC) and XF modify fuel delivery over the top of what the OEM map offers. Therefore compromised. PC is the least sophisticated as it runs open loops so the ECU can't adapt to altitude or change to the bike.
However PC has been around a long time and is well devilled and well understood by dyno tuners.

My PC is not perfectly set up but it is hugely better than the OEM map. The bike even feels like it handles better because i get smooth and immediate power none of the mushy delivery that comes as standard. I accept its a compromise but bought it used and will use it until I can justify a Hilltop remap.

Remap

• Fuelling fully optimised across rev range via Dyno
• Retains ECU adaptability to changes such as exhaust baffles
• No visible modifications
• Generic maps available from some suppliers

Power Commander

• Fuelling fully optimised across rev range via dyno
• Loses ECU adaptability to changes such as altitude and exhaust baffles. O2 sensors are removed.
• Dependent on OEM map
• Modifications are visible with additional wires and PC box are visible
• Generic maps available from some suppliers Maybe (See above)

XF-IED

• Fuelling fully optimised across rev range via dyno
• Changes the O2 sensor outputs so retains ECU adaptability
• Easy adjustments by user. Nice to have but how do users gauge the effects of those adjustments without a dyno?
• Modifications are visible with additional boxes in O2 wires
• Dependent on OEM map
• Generic settings may be available

CONCLUCIONS

• 
  [1]Remap is the top option if done by Hilltop but elsewhere could risk a blown ECU map. What happens if the originator goes out of business?
  [2]Offers benefits of Power Commander but retains ECU adaptability to engine changes and altitude.
  [3]Power Commander is a quick dirty fix but is well developed. 2nd hand units can save a lot of expense. Compromised by the lack of ECU adaptability.
  

 

[Bendy toy]

I may be catastrophising but this thread made me seriously rethink my engine fuelling. Its a while back so many questions raised (in there) have since been answered
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/289641-1200-exhaust-valve-burnout

Picture here with melted valve stem
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/289641-1200-exhaust-valve-burnout/page4

It's said that BMW blamed a faulty batch of valves but its funny how they were almost always RH cylinders (how did the faulty valves know to go there). Whatever the cause overheated valves will be compromised.

I don't want to add the costs of top end rebuilds on top of final drive rebuilds.

 

[Cymru-Dave]

can anyone tell me how much it would be to have a hilltop remap? I may look to get mine booked in this summer.

 

[Bendy toy]

IIRC its about £350. Bike needs to be fully serviced including air filter, valve clearances and throttle balance. Any planned mods (e.g. fancy zorst) need to be done.

 

[Mistacat]

Fully agree that I have no experience with O2 sensor adjusting tools such as the AF XIED. But I have never claimed to know about these devices. I am however suspicious of any add on device PC included. In the end they are all add on fixes.

On the other hand with bikes having such compromised OEM maps (almost) anything has to be better.

The Power Commander (PC) and XF modify fuel delivery over the top of what the OEM map offers. Therefore compromised. PC is the least sophisticated as it runs open loops so the ECU can't adapt to altitude or change to the bike.
However PC has been around a long time and is well devilled and well understood by dyno tuners.

My PC is not perfectly set up but it is hugely better than the OEM map. The bike even feels like it handles better because i get smooth and immediate power none of the mushy delivery that comes as standard. I accept its a compromise but bought it used and will use it until I can justify a Hilltop remap.

Remap

• Fuelling fully optimised across rev range via Dyno
• Retains ECU adaptability to changes such as exhaust baffles
• No visible modifications
• Generic maps available from some suppliers

Power Commander

• Fuelling fully optimised across rev range via dyno
• Loses ECU adaptability to changes such as altitude and exhaust baffles. O2 sensors are removed.
• Dependent on OEM map
• Modifications are visible with additional wires and PC box are visible
• Generic maps available from some suppliers Maybe (See above)

XF-IED

• Fuelling fully optimised across rev range via dyno
• Changes the O2 sensor outputs so retains ECU adaptability
• Easy adjustments by user. Nice to have but how do users gauge the effects of those adjustments without a dyno?
• Modifications are visible with additional boxes in O2 wires
• Dependent on OEM map
• Generic settings may be available

CONCLUCIONS

• 
  [1]Remap is the top option if done by Hilltop but elsewhere could risk a blown ECU map. What happens if the originator goes out of business?
  [2]Offers benefits of Power Commander but retains ECU adaptability to engine changes and altitude.
  [3]Power Commander is a quick dirty fix but is well developed. 2nd hand units can save a lot of expense. Compromised by the lack of ECU adaptability.
  

Answer to. "how does the user gauge the results without a dyno". I use an innovate LM2 dual band, with wide band sensors in both exhausts I simultaneously collect the rest of the data from the K line on the ECU.
This gives me genuine road driven data with as many parameters as I need. ( I can log up to 32 channels)
Here is a small sample of a pair of Af-XIED`s on setting 7 plotted with Livegraph. I have smoothed the AFR traces to make them more visible.

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[RedRick Esq.]

IIRC its about £350. Bike needs to be fully serviced including air filter, valve clearances and throttle balance. Any planned mods (e.g. fancy zorst) need to be done.

Not necessarily true re the zorst as the map from geoff will learn to a certain degree

 

[Mistacat]

Just to add that I am not knocking power commander I have had a lot of success over the years with PC3`s on primitive Japanese open loop injection systems, but technology moves on.
BMW have created a very complex engine management system that needs working with ( coaxing in the required direction) as opposed to trying to fight it.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Answer to. "how does the user gauge the results without a dyno". I use an innovate LM2 dual band, with wide band sensors in both exhausts I simultaneously collect the rest of the data from the K line on the ECU.
This gives me genuine road driven data with as many parameters as I need. ( I can log up to 32 channels)
Here is a small sample of a pair of Af-XIED`s on setting 7 plotted with Livegraph. I have smoothed the AFR traces to make them more visible.
[IMG[/IMG]

Those are really good plots. In the interest of knowledge, it would be great if someone ran your data collection system on a Hilltop remap.

 

[Bendy toy]

The ability to plot the parameters with an AF-XIED certainly makes it worth a look. I still have an issue with add-on boxes but being able to see what is going on has to be good.

(1) What sort of cost are we talking about for the full setup to install and tune the system?

(2) Can it cope with the sometimes excessively low A/F ratios generated by the OEM maps as mentioned by Hilltop?

(3) Do the parameters remain within the set limits when altitude changes?

 

[Roger 04 RT]

The AF-XIED has no data logging capability. That is the result of mistacats LM-2 setup. He even added second bungs to each exhaust for the wideband O2s that go with it. He did that to check that af-XIEDs are doing what was claimed.

1) $220 for singles or $380 for duals like the R1200. It takes on af-xied per O2 sensor. Nightrider discounts the dual.
2) I have been measuring R1200s and R1150s and have not seen excessively low AFRs. Many engines over-fuel at high power to cool the exhaust valves. If you race, you may be willing to risk burning a valve for the very highest power, but ...
3) Yes, because it works with the ECU, not against it, the BMSK or Motronic does the full job, including compensating for altitude.

 

[Mistacat]

Bendy, I am sorry if I mislead you with the data logging, The AF-XIED has No inbuilt data logging ability. ( I use an Innovate Motorsports dual channel LM2 ).
Roger has accurately answered your questions 2 & 3

I purchased my units over 2 years ago from Beemer Boneyard. So not sure of current prices without looking at their website.

Roger, I would be happy to data log a bike with a hilltop remap, but I would have to weld another set of bungs in the header pipes. ( not a problem to me ).

I would not want to replace the stock lambda sensors with my wideband units as I am not sure if the Hilltop remap uses the lambda sensors.
Geoff told me that he does not use the lambda sensors and runs open loop from his map, but others have stated he still uses the lambda sensors and retains the ECU`s adaptability ?. ( without using the stock lambda sensors I don`t understand how this is possible ).
So all we need is a local volunteer. I would be happy to donate my time spent in the interest of resolving this debate and to further my knowledge and understanding.

 

[(RIP) Arkwright]

4 of us had AF-XiEDS in November c/o Astrro and they came out at £268 all in inc postage. Now that we've made mine work I'm well pleased!

 

[backstreet hero]

This is a useful thread. Here's my 2 cents on what's been said so far.

It's clear from this and previous Hilltop threads that they don't have the remapping software to access and edit the fuel, ignition and sensor maps. This is why they can't do anything with closed loop or any settings such as reducing deceleration fuel cutoff, disabling secondary air injection, change throttle sensitivity, rev limits or lower gear restrictions. And it's why it takes so little time and effort when you take your bike there!

Remapping software is developed by firms such as Rexxer, FTEcu, ECUnleashed or Woolich Racing and is then licenced to tuners so that they can edit all of the ECU maps and make other adjustments. Rexxer tuners can now do 2013-on GS's with Bosch BMSX ECU (as well as pre-2013 GS's using BMSK ECUs). A proper remap will take at least 4-5 hours. Race bikes have fully programmable ECUs which come with their own sophisticated programming software.

The idea (if true) that you prat about with the ECU BIOS because you don't have the proper remapping software is crazy. Imagine doing that with your TV's BIOS to change channels instead of using the program guide software!

Powercommanders vary depending on the bike make and model. Some use an O2 optimiser which keeps the existing O2 sensors but adds a %fuel to closed loop. You still get the on-off fuelling inherent with narrow band sensors, but throttle response will be better 'cos it's richer. Others like the PCV for the GS disables closed loop, but all PC's effectively allow remapping of fuel and ignition tables. All sensors apart from the O2 sensors are still used of course, but you can't do the other ecu adjustments such as fuel cutoff, throttle sensitivity/linearity, rev limits or in-gear power restrictions. Auto Tune introduces wide band O2 sensors so that target air/fuel mixtures can be set, like the AF-XiEDs.

Closed loop using O2 sensors is purely for Euro 3 emissions regs and spoils low speed running. It's got nothing to do with running at altitude. Your bikes run fine at altitude at wider throttle openings and higher revs in open loop currently and bikes prior to Euro 3 did too. Your manifold pressure sensor largely compensates for altitude anyway and it'll only run a bit rich in any case. It's best to shut off closed loop and just map the bike properly.

I've not used AF-XiEDs, but tried most other tuning mentioned here and nothing matches proper closed loop remapping. However it has to be proper remapping. Just my opinion of course, yours may differ.

 

[Mistacat]

I agree that to properly create a set of maps, it will take many hours of dyno time and some very expensive software.
The 1200GS does not warrant this time or expense just to get it running a little richer and improve its road manners.
The AF-XIED is not perfect and I have data to show where it could be improved with a proper remap. ( I presented these graphs to Geoff and asked his opinion, he said that "it was probably because the sensors were a bit slow") !.
I just feel that the AF-XIED`s are the best compromise that I have tested and recorded data on so far for a reasonable outlay.
P.s The BMSK has an altitude pressure sensor built into the ECU there is not a MAP (manifold pressure sensor) on these bikes)

 

[Roger 04 RT]

This is a useful thread. Here's my 2 cents on what's been said so far.

It's clear from this and previous Hilltop threads that they don't have the remapping software to access and edit the fuel, ignition and sensor maps. This is why they can't do anything with closed loop or any settings such as reducing deceleration fuel cutoff, disabling secondary air injection, change throttle sensitivity, rev limits or lower gear restrictions. And it's why it takes so little time and effort when you take your bike there!

Even with Mistacat's comments about the added code and running Open Loop it isn't clear what the Hilltop update does because they also claim adaptation, which requires Closed Loop fueling. It may be that their code is run for some parts of the maps and not others. The best way to figure this out is by attaching instrumentation (as mistacat has offered) and measuring what it does. If a GS-911 were used even the claims of Adaptation could be measured because the GS-911 now reports Adaptation Values.

...

Powercommanders vary depending on the bike make and model. Some use an O2 optimiser which keeps the existing O2 sensors but adds a %fuel to closed loop. You still get the on-off fuelling inherent with narrow band sensors, but throttle response will be better 'cos it's richer. Others like the PCV for the GS disables closed loop, but all PC's effectively allow remapping of fuel and ignition tables. All sensors apart from the O2 sensors are still used of course, but you can't do the other ecu adjustments such as fuel cutoff, throttle sensitivity/linearity, rev limits or in-gear power restrictions. Auto Tune introduces wide band O2 sensors so that target air/fuel mixtures can be set, like the AF-XiEDs.

I'm familiar with four versions of power commanders. The PC III with and without Wideband O2, and the PC V with and without autotune.

The PC III with Wideband is a GREAT product for the R1150 because it incorporates a wideband with simulated narrowband output which causes the Motronic to use Closed Loop adaptation to richen fueling in the entire map, just like the AF-xied and Innovate LC-2. Without the wideband, the PC-III is just another Open Loop Solution that can't adapt to engine wear, fuel ethanol content, fuel injector performance differences, fuel pressure variation, etc.

The PC V with Autotune is not Closed Loop but rather a way to refine the Open Loop fueling changes it makes. Autotune is a very coarse function. Without closed loop the R1200 loses adaptation for: engine wear, fuel ethanol content, fuel injector performance differences, fuel pressure variation, etc. AND it loses one of its BEST features: the ability to fine tune AFR for the left and right cylinders independently.

Closed loop using O2 sensors is purely for Euro 3 emissions regs and spoils low speed running. It's got nothing to do with running at altitude. Your bikes run fine at altitude at wider throttle openings and higher revs in open loop currently and bikes prior to Euro 3 did too. Your manifold pressure sensor largely compensates for altitude anyway and it'll only run a bit rich in any case. It's best to shut off closed loop and just map the bike properly.

You are correct that the R1200 adjusts for barometric pressure, but not by using a manifold pressure sensor. It uses a barometric pressure sensor buried in the BMSK ECU. The reason that the wider throttle angles work so well is their mapping but also the Long Term trims calculated from Closed Loop areas, another reason why it is bad to lose Closed Loop operation.

I've not used AF-XiEDs, but tried most other tuning mentioned here and nothing matches proper closed loop remapping. However it has to be proper remapping. Just my opinion of course, yours may differ.

Proper Closed Loop remapping is good but without a Lambda-shift like the LC-2 or AF-XIED, you never get the best small and mid throttle operation because without the lambda-shift you can't get a richer closed loop mixture.

Once you do shift lambda, you also get wider throttle angle enrichment due to the long term trims getting richer, improving wider throttle angles too.

Lastly, it should be noted that the R1200 with BMSK enforces Closed Loop 70% of the time or greater in mixed highway/local riding based on GS-911 data sets that have been sent to me. So it is not just for low speed Euro 3 regulations. Another reason why Closed Loop lambda shifting is a highly effective solution.

 

[Bendy toy]

Thanks folks the resolves a lot of the myth, legend and mystery about remapping/tuning FI engines.

In my case I'm prepared to keep my "not quite there" PCV setup while I wait for the spare cash to have it Hilltopped or AF-XIED ed. But I would want to be able to fit or remove baffles and have the engine fuelling remain correct. Maybe that's not possible on any modified system. I don't know.

My PC is set for a non baffled Akraprovic "standard" BMW GS silencer can. I have the shotgun system which sounds stunning without baffles it stuns everyone within ear shot. To manage the mixture Im using one baffle and that is acceptable but means I can't even take a short 70mph run without ear plugs so a little inconvenient. I would like be able to fit or remove one or both baffles and have the ECU correct the fuel mixture.

 

[comberjohn]

Don't believe it!
Bendy said he might consider an AF XiED system!
From what I've read, the AF XiED units are the only system that will give Bendy the true adaptability that he is after. Albeit it might take a couple of tanks of fuel to do so.
I had believed that a Hilltop re map also had the adaptability but now there still seems to be an area of doubt on that. O2 sensors or no O2 sensors?
Was interested to have a look at the websites for some of the remapping software mentioned such as Rexxer.
When looking at tuners that use it, I noticed that one in North Dublin is a user. I may be wrong, but I think that this is the tuner that Betty Swallocks used.
He reckoned the bike went like stink but developed a raging thirst for fuel. I think the same tuner has now sorted his bike for him.
I don't think anyone needs to get the very last one or two bhp available, but still feel that the AF XiED units are the easiest way to get the overall best from your GS. Plus, as has been explained at length on this forum and others, it's the best understood in terms of what it does in terms of adaptability.
And you can unload it for money when you decide to sell that 'keeper'.
I often wonder how many people who buy a second hand GS that has been re mapped, think that BMW have made a brilliant job of making it run so well.

 

[Bendy toy]

I am happy to try anything but have a healthy (dis)respect for manufacturers and owner's claims. The latter seem to follow two extremes

• Spent money so want to be seen to have done the right thing.
• Spent money, feel ripped off and want to shout about it.

I too had believed that a pukka remap retained the ECU adaptability. However are we comparing apples and pears?

• A remap set for all out power will not use the O2 sensors as they wont let the ECU deliver enough additional fuel.
• A remap set to solve issues with the original map should use the O2 sensors but wont make the all out power or response of a power map.

If that's not the case I clearly need to look again.

My Power Cmmander setup was done for power so makes the engine run rich. That's down to the tuner doing what the previous owner wanted. It's close enough for now so I've not had it back fro retuning to my bike. The old spark plug electrode colour was spot on though the plug rims were black (rich side of ok). I personally want an engine that runs at the ideal mixture most of the time. Im happy to lose a few bhp at the top end.

Ive always said the issue with Power Commander is its fixed fuel settings. When cash allows I will be going for a remap or system that retains the ECU adaptability. The remap "feels" the more elegant solution but not if it can't adapt to baffles or some such.

We need the full SP from Geoff.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

I am happy to try anything but have a healthy (dis)respect for manufacturers and owner's claims. The latter seem to follow two extremes

• Spent money so want to be seen to have done the right thing.
• Spent money, feel ripped off and want to shout about it.

I too had believed that a pukka remap retained the ECU adaptability. However are we comparing apples and pears?

• A remap set for all out power will not use the O2 sensors as they wont let the ECU deliver enough additional fuel.
• A remap set to solve issues with the original map should use the O2 sensors but wont make the all out power or response of a power map.

...

We need the full SP from Geoff.

I don't disagree with the above comments but would refine them.

1) A remap with O2 sensors can modify spark advance throughout the map and perhaps add permanent gain.

2) A remap with O2 sensors can modify fueling above half throttle and at top RPMs and add power in that area that would show a dyno increase. However is wide throttle, high RPM the area you're looking to improve.

3) A remap with O2 sensors can not richen the fueling in the Closed Loop area but a lambda-shift can. Several percent more fuel first 30% of Engine Load, Closed Loop is usually immediately sensed by the rider.

4) A remap that adds fuel in the Closed Loop area leads to leaning in the Open Loop area because the long term trims drop below 1.00 and then remove fuel everywhere. So as "elegant" as remapping seems it must be done with full respect for Clised Loop adaptation, if the O2 sensors are retained (a big plus for a daily rider).

As with all claims, I heartily agree with buyer beware. That's why people like myself and mistacat have spent time and money measuring outcomes. I have a $150 air-temp-shifter gathering dust.

 

[Bendy toy]

Interesting stuff

The PC does the job for now but I don't want to spend money on something Ive always considered a workaround fix at best and a bodge at worst.

Well - I will be looking at the AF-XIED when the time is right (i.e. when I'm not broke). My aim is for drivability and reasonable economy with a top end howe gain if its available. I'm not after P-O-W-E-R at all costs.

My GS without the PC feels flat and weak and rough. The 4000 revs flat spot is right where I want to use the engine and really is annoying to live with. More accurately, now I know how the engine should perform that flat spot is a pain.