RISE NOW AND BE A NATION AGAIN !

I see the Tories are sending their big hitter William Vague north in a desperate effort to save the union.

It's like Barcelona bringing on Messi when they're 2-0 down with 20 mins to go.

:D
 
The tories have no great desire to keep Scotland in the Union. Without Scotland there would be an outright tory majority in the rest of the UK. Without Scottish labour votes Forrest Gump would have even less chance than he has now of ever being prime minister. The only reason the tories want to keep Scotland in the union is they fear the economic uncertainty that would be bound to follow the break up of the union and it would scupper their desire to reform or get out of the EU. A UK out of the EU with a neighbour, with which it shares a land border, in the EU would pose all sorts of problems. The tories love the market and the market hates uncertainty so the market does not want the break up of the UK. I think the market is spot on.
 
i've never heard so much shite in all my years.in which part of the economic parallel universe do you live in????mmm me thinks your part of the belief that the sum is greater than its constituent parts.away and peddle your shite elsewhere.i think you and toddy are partners.
 
I see the Tories are sending their big hitter William Vague north in a desperate effort to save the union.

Unfortunately for them, they're probably no' smart enough tae gie him elocution lessons first, so that he disnae speak sae much wi' a bool in his mooth....:rolleyes:
 
i've never heard so much shite in all my years.in which part of the economic parallel universe do you live in????mmm me thinks your part of the belief that the sum is greater than its constituent parts.away and peddle your shite elsewhere.i think you and toddy are partners.

Who's that aimed at...
 
Westminster elections without Scotland

Here's what I can find.....

Why Labour doesn’t need Scotland

One of Labour’s sneakier tricks in opposing Scottish independence is to appeal to Scottish voters’ sense of social responsibility. The former party of socialist internationalism begs the Scots to show Unionist solidarity with their poor comrades in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, who would – the story runs – be abandoned permanently to the mercies of the evil Tories if the Westminster Parliament was deprived of its traditional sizeable block of Labour MPs from Scotland.

This narrative is regularly propagated by Labour’s friends in the media (and sometimes by gleeful Tories too). Only today, for example, the Scotsman carries the line in a piece which asserts that an independent Scotland would leave David Cameron “with an inbuilt Tory majority for his party in the rest of the UK”.

There are, of course, innumerable things wrong with this argument – for one, the dubious morality of using Scottish MPs to impose a Labour government on English voters who may have rejected one, when Scotland has its own Parliament and England doesn’t. (An offshoot of the timeless West Lothian Question.) And for another, the highly questionable premise that the modern-day Labour Party is ideologically significantly different from the Tories anyway.

But the biggest problem with the notion is simply that it’s completely untrue.


Much of the reason is careless pundits who focus on the fact that Scotland habitually returns 40+ Labour MPs, but who forget that it also sends members to Westminster from the other parties to offset them. In October 1974, for example – which we’ll discover shortly is a significant date – Labour won 41 Scottish seats. That sounds impressive, until you realise that Scotland also voted in 30 non-Labour MPs (16 Tory, 11 SNP, 3 Liberal), meaning that the net contribution of Scotland towards a Labour majority was just 11. So let’s take a look at the whole historical picture.

Labour didn’t become a significant electoral force at all until the 1920s, with Ramsey MacDonald its first ever Prime Minister in 1923, albeit leading an extremely shaky minority government which only lasted 10 months. Universal suffrage for all men and women over 21 finally arrived in 1928, but the modern political era starts with Clement Attlee’s post-war Labour landslide, and particularly with the Representation Of The People Act 1948, which abolished multiple voting, multi-member constituencies and other anachronisms to create the framework which still essentially, with a few tweaks around the edges (eg lowering the voting age to 18 in 1969), governs British elections.

The 67 years since the end of World War 2 have seen 18 General Elections to the Westminster Parliament, with the following outcomes (sources below):


1945 Labour govt (Attlee)
————————————
Labour majority: 146
Labour majority without any Scottish MPs in Parliament: 143
NO CHANGE WITHOUT SCOTTISH MPS


1950 Labour govt (Attlee)
————————————
Labour majority: 5
Without Scottish MPs: 2
NO CHANGE


1951 Conservative govt (Churchill/Eden)
——————————————————–
Conservative majority: 17
Without Scottish MPs: 16
NO CHANGE


1955 Conservative govt (Eden/Macmillan)
——————————————————–
Conservative majority: 60
Without Scottish MPs: 61
NO CHANGE


1959 Conservative govt (Macmillan/Douglas-Home)
————————————————————————
Conservative majority: 100
Without Scottish MPs: 109
NO CHANGE


1964 Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————
Labour majority: 4
Without Scottish MPs: -9
CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY OF 1
(Con 280, Lab 274, Lib 5)


1966 Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————
Labour majority: 98
Without Scottish MPs: 77
NO CHANGE


1970 Conservative govt (Heath)
——————————————–
Conservative majority: 30
Without Scottish MPs: 55
NO CHANGE


1974 Minority Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————————
Labour majority: -33
Without Scottish MPs: -50
POSSIBLE CHANGE – LABOUR MINORITY TO CONSERVATIVE MINORITY
(Without Scots: Con 276, Lab 261, Lib 11, Others 16)


1974b Labour govt (Wilson/Callaghan)
—————————————————–
Labour majority: 3
Without Scottish MPs: -8
CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO LABOUR MINORITY
(Lab 278 Con 261 Lib 10 others 15)


1979 Conservative govt (Thatcher)
————————————————
Conservative majority: 43
Without Scottish MPs: 70
NO CHANGE


1983 Conservative govt (Thatcher)
————————————————
Conservative majority: 144
Without Scottish MPs: 174
NO CHANGE


1987 Conservative govt (Thatcher/Major)
——————————————————
Conservative majority: 102
Without Scottish MPs: 154
NO CHANGE


1992 Conservative govt (Major)
———————————————
Conservative majority: 21
Without Scottish MPs: 71
NO CHANGE


1997 Labour govt (Blair)
———————————–
Labour majority: 179
Without Scottish MPs: 139
NO CHANGE


2001 Labour govt (Blair)
———————————–
Labour majority: 167
Without Scottish MPs: 129
NO CHANGE


2005 Labour govt (Blair/Brown)
——————————————–
Labour majority: 66
Without Scottish MPs: 43
NO CHANGE


2010 Coalition govt (Cameron)
——————————————
Conservative majority: -38
Without Scottish MPs: 19
CHANGE: CON-LIB COALITION TO CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY

.

Sources:
All UK general election results
General election results in Scotland 1945-2001 (Table 1e, p.13)
General election results in Scotland 2005 and 2010



So in summary we can see the following:

- on ONE occasion (1964) Scottish MPs have turned what would have been a Conservative government into a Labour one. The Tory majority without Scottish votes would have been just one MP (280 vs 279), and as such useless in practice. The Labour government, with an almost equally feeble majority of 4, lasted just 18 months and a Tory one would probably have collapsed even faster.

- on ONE occasion (the second of the two 1974 elections) Scottish MPs gave Labour a wafer-thin majority (319 vs 316) they wouldn’t have had from the rest of the UK alone, although they’d still have been the largest party and able to command a majority in a pact with the Liberals, as they eventually did in reality.

- and on ONE occasion (2010) the presence of Scottish MPs has deprived the Conservatives of an outright majority, although the Conservatives ended up in control of the government anyway in coalition with the Lib Dems when Labour refused to co-operate with other parties in a “rainbow alliance”.

- which means that for 65 of the last 67 years, Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government. From a high of 72 MPs in 1983, Scotland’s representation will by 2015 have decreased to 52, substantially reducing any future possibility of affecting a change.

The simple reality of the matter, established indisputably and unambiguously by these stats, is that England and the rest of the UK are and always have been perfectly capable of electing a Labour government if they want one, whatever Scotland does.

The truth is that Labour doesn’t need Scottish MPs, and an independent Scotland would NOT give the Tories a permanent majority in the remnant UK. Those are the facts, and voters should be deeply mistrustful of anyone who tells them anything else.
 

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While you're on about general election results.... in 2010 the SNP only got approx. 80,000 more votes than the tories who are supposedly hated in Scotland, and that I believe was because a lot of disaffected Labour voters voted tactically for the SNP to punish Labour.
 

...don't spoil it for Toddy the UKGSER's greatest political researcher who has dedicated much of his life and built his reputation on uncovering the unknown and presenting the facts back with his own much trust due diligence on their credibility and his considered opinion on how one might view them against other maybe contradictory views.
 


You're getting there Toddy, you've added a personal to you comment to a cut and paste. What would help is if you added to this your reasoning for making that comment - Well done though


Personally I don't see why you'd want to buy this guy a drink, he seems a boring fecker that admits he had little interest in Scotland - Well that was until he saw an opportunity to promote himself
 
Is this thread a true representation of what's really going on...

... It seems like the only one who has held the YES position is Toddy and he's not got many supporters.
 
Is this thread a true representation of what's really going on...

... It seems like the only one who has held the YES position is Toddy and he's not got many supporters.

You are wrong. There are many who support the Yes position but they have not yet mastered the cut and thrust, sorry paste, of political discussion. They want to vote yes because they want "Freeedom" like in the movie. That is fine so long as you don't mind the financial entrails being ripped out of your country as a result. In my opinion the yes camp is made up of those who are struggling financially now and have nothing to lose by voting yes in the hope that the SNP vision of a more equal Scotland means cash being taken from those who have it and given to those who have not. In addition the well off chattering classes can afford to take a punt on the Yes vote safe in the knowledge that they can protect their assets by moving them out of reach.

The middle group of working Scots who are comfortably off, but not rich, with a a few pounds in the bank and a mortgage sensibly don't want to risk their financial future in terms of devaluation of their savings, higher mortgage rates and higher taxes that they can't afford a clever accountant to dodge. As with all socialist governments this is the group who bear the pain of creating "a more equal society" by having their living standards dragged down towards those of the poorest members. Since the middle group is the majority in voting terms the NO vote is likely to win.
 
You are wrong. There are many who support the Yes position but they have not yet mastered the cut and thrust, sorry paste, of political discussion. They want to vote yes because they want "Freeedom" like in the movie. That is fine so long as you don't mind the financial entrails being ripped out of your country as a result. In my opinion the yes camp is made up of those who are struggling financially now and have nothing to lose by voting yes in the hope that the SNP vision of a more equal Scotland means cash being taken from those who have it and given to those who have not. In addition the well off chattering classes can afford to take a punt on the Yes vote safe in the knowledge that they can protect their assets by moving them out of reach.

The middle group of working Scots who are comfortably off, but not rich, with a a few pounds in the bank and a mortgage sensibly don't want to risk their financial future in terms of devaluation of their savings, higher mortgage rates and higher taxes that they can't afford a clever accountant to dodge. As with all socialist governments this is the group who bear the pain of creating "a more equal society" by having their living standards dragged down towards those of the poorest members. Since the middle group is the majority in voting terms the NO vote is likely to win.


I've been educated once again, my sources of knowledge are now:

Bennysdad - for anything Scotland and for seeing outside if my Tory blinkered box
Mickapedia - for local knowledge (Mick from Micks Mowers knows everything)
This Forum for the rest

Sorted:D
 


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