RISE NOW AND BE A NATION AGAIN !

[Deleted account 210516001]

This is published by your heros in Westminster.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/writev/643/m05.htm

Open your mind.

Parliament.uk............get it.

This is brilliant everybody. The highlighted bits are Toddy's own words at long last. Not cut and paste but his actual thoughts.

Now that he has engaged with the debate he might tell us, in his own words, why he thinks we would be better off as an independent country without a currency of its own and with a rampant socialist government? We must all promise however not to leak any of his thoughts to his minders in case he gets into trouble.

 

[Gav]

which Scotland is a proud member of

You may say proud. Many of us say ashamed.

Firstly, I would like to point out that these are all institutions which Scotland helps pay for and so belong to us as well. They are not the functions of any one country.

“Nats” plan to walk away and form another country? Rubbish!! We have a country. We don’t intend to form another one. Those of us who prefer to have a normal, independent country are not walking away when we gain our independence. We want the country we have just now to work and be on a level footing with others.

As for the part about paying for offices of state, as I already mentioned, we do that just now.

And your last bit about forming two new countries, what a load of nonsense. There is no plan to do that. We just want the country we have just now to be independent. There are no plans to split it in two.

 

[gerarddwatts]

Oh dear!!

I don't know where to start!!

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

You may say proud. Many of us say ashamed.

Firstly, I would like to point out that these are all institutions which Scotland helps pay for and so belong to us as well. They are not the functions of any one country.

“Nats” plan to walk away and form another country? Rubbish!! We have a country. We don’t intend to form another one. Those of us who prefer to have a normal, independent country are not walking away when we gain our independence. We want the country we have just now to work and be on a level footing with others.

As for the part about paying for offices of state, as I already mentioned, we do that just now.

I am not suggesting that Scotland is incapable of running all these agencies but you are being extremely naive if you think there are not going to be considerable extra costs and up to now the SNP have given no indication of where they are going to get the money to pay these costs. Unless there is a plan to buy lots of lottery tickets and hope for a jackpot the extra cash can only come from more borrowing, which will push up interest rates or higher taxes. Of course if you live on benefits and don't have a mortgage neither of these problems will impact on you and in that circumstances a Yes vote carries little risk and makes the voter feel all warm and patriotic inside. I can understand the attraction but I can equally well understand the concerns of those who do pay tax and have loans to pay off. It is easy to take a gamble with someone else's money but not so easy when you are risking your own financial future.

And your last bit about forming two new countries, what a load of nonsense. There is no plan to do that. We just want the country we have just now to be independent. There are no plans to split it in two.

At the moment Scottish taxpayers contribute towards the cost of running the various offices of state but after independence they will have to bear the full cost of setting up their own institutions. The total cost over 10 years for IT services for HMRC were £8.5 Billion. Presumably a Scottish HMRC starting from scratch will have large set up cost over and above the normal running costs so is unlikely to cost less in its first 10 years. Every businessman is aware of the economies of scale involved when companies are merged and indeed the Scottish government recognises similar opportunities to save money by amalgamating the 8 Scottish police forces and 8 fire authorities into single authorities. The opposite is true when companies or institutions are split up. In other words if you split up an organisation it is not possible to run each separate enterprise for half the cost of the original because each part of the new business has to pay the full costs of functions that were previously shared like management, HR and IT. Expert evidence given to the Scottish government estimates that it would take 10 years after independence to fully transfer current HMRC functions to Scotland. That of course assumes that the UK HMRC would be willing to continue the running of the tax collection sytem for a foreign country.

An independent Scotland and the rest of the UK will each cost more to run than the current costs of running combined functions. Where is this money to come from in an independent Scotland? Unless they win on Euromillions the Scottish government will have to borrow more or raise taxes. Of course anybody who does not have a mortgage or does not earn enough to pay tax has nothing to worry about unless of course the company they work for has borrowings and pays tax and might have to cut its workforce to pay higher interest charges. Looks like to have no worries about independence you need to be a non tax payer with no debts who works for the public service or does not work at all.

 

[gerarddwatts]

You may say proud. Many of us say ashamed.

Firstly, I would like to point out that these are all institutions which Scotland helps pay for and so belong to us as well. They are not the functions of any one country.

“Nats” plan to walk away and form another country? Rubbish!! We have a country. We don’t intend to form another one. Those of us who prefer to have a normal, independent country are not walking away when we gain our independence. We want the country we have just now to work and be on a level footing with others.

As for the part about paying for offices of state, as I already mentioned, we do that just now.

And your last bit about forming two new countries, what a load of nonsense. There is no plan to do that. We just want the country we have just now to be independent. There are no plans to split it in two.

Im very sorry you are 'ashamed' to be part of the UK. I suspect you are in a minority. If indeed you feel 'shame', I don't think theres much I can say to console you. Luckily most don't feel 'shame'....dis-satisfaction possibly but not 'shame'. Think of all those Scots serving in the UK Armed Services....I am confident that 'shame' is not one of their emotions.

They are the institutions of the UK. An independent Scotland will no longer be part of the UK, and will no longer have access to them. Scotland will have walked away. Thats what independence is.

I'm sorry you don't understand. This is exactly what independence is. Scotland will leave the UK and form a separate sovereign state...another country. With all the resultant costs.

Economies of scale mean anything to you?

I'm not sure where you get this bit from. I agree it would be nonsense. I don't see where it has been proposed. Certainly not by me.

 

[boatman]

What might be considered shameful, by future generations, (because this vote is not just for the current generation) was to have been part of the camp that voted to deny Scotland reclaiming its nationhood . However being a democrat i will be content to accept the result
It is however worth noting that, the gaining and retention of nationhood has often been a prize that people have been prepared to pay a large price for up to and including the FULL price
We on the other hand are simply quibbling over our own ££ and some fiscal and social policy.
It seems to me that we owe it to those who come after us to give them ( and our current peoples) the chance of self determination
Then let us make of it what we will.
The people of this country will then HAVE to participate in " grown up politics" instead of the psuedo parliament with it,s current crop of tinkering ,cardboard cut out, kid on,naval gazing politicians that have the great "get out of jail card" of "stuff reserved to westminster"


This time the whole population get a say, which was not the case preceeding the union of the crowns.
Simply not credible that we cannot be our own nation once again

 

[Schtum]

What might be considered shameful, by future generations, (because this vote is not just for the current generation) was to have been part of the camp that voted to deny Scotland reclaiming its nationhood . However being a democrat i will be content to accept the result
It is however worth noting that, the gaining and retention of nationhood has often been a prize that people have been prepared to pay a large price for up to and including the FULL price
We on the other hand are simply quibbling over our own ££ and some fiscal and social policy.
It seems to me that we owe it to those who come after us to give them ( and our current peoples) the chance of self determination
Then let us make of it what we will.
The people of this country will then HAVE to participate in " grown up politics" instead of the psuedo parliament with it,s current crop of tinkering ,cardboard cut out, kid on,naval gazing politicians that have the great "get out of jail card" of "stuff reserved to westminster"


This time the whole population get a say, which was not the case preceeding the union of the crowns.
Simply not credible that we cannot be our own nation once again

Very well said, Symon.....

 

[E. Buygum]

.
.

They are the institutions of the UK. An independent Scotland will no longer be part of the UK, and will no longer have access to them. Scotland will have walked away. Thats what independence is.
.
.

Quite. I am genuinely bewildered how difficult this point is for some to grasp.

If you are jointly buying a house with three mates and you walk away cos one of them is pissing you off and leave them to pay the mortgage, you can hardly expect to take the kitchen units and carpets with you, even though you did contribute towards them. You need to take their loss into account when making the decision to leave.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

What might be considered shameful, by future generations, (because this vote is not just for the current generation) was to have been part of the camp that voted to deny Scotland reclaiming its nationhood . However being a democrat i will be content to accept the result
It is however worth noting that, the gaining and retention of nationhood has often been a prize that people have been prepared to pay a large price for up to and including the FULL price
We on the other hand are simply quibbling over our own ££ and some fiscal and social policy.
It seems to me that we owe it to those who come after us to give them ( and our current peoples) the chance of self determination
Then let us make of it what we will.
The people of this country will then HAVE to participate in " grown up politics" instead of the psuedo parliament with it,s current crop of tinkering ,cardboard cut out, kid on,naval gazing politicians that have the great "get out of jail card" of "stuff reserved to westminster"


This time the whole population get a say, which was not the case preceeding the union of the crowns.
Simply not credible that we cannot be our own nation once again

As usual when the Yes camp are presented with the economic truths of what independence will cost they retreat into the emotional blackmail of patriotism and independence for its own sake. There is nothing wrong with that stance and as I have said I admire an individual with such strong beliefs in self determination that they are willing to give up all that they have to attain it. It is certainly a much more honest appeal than trying to claim that there will not have to be a drop in middle class living standards to fund the ambitions of the separatists. Usually however those who have been compelled to make the ultimate sacrifice in pursuit of nationhood have done so at the behest of an inspirational leader whose vision of the future is one they can have faith in. There is no such inspirational leader to follow at the moment and the visions of the future presented by those who would be leaders don't withstand even superficial examination. Once such a leader appears with policies that indicate a future other than the tried and failed politics of envy I might be willing to give a different answer but as it stands at the moment following this lot into the uncertainties of the future with nothing other than a hope that what did not work in the past will somehow come good in the future is an ask too far.

By the way it is the union of the parliaments that they are seeking to overturn and not the union of the crowns that preceded it by 104 years. The population still gets no say in who should succeed the monarch and that will remain so in an independent Scotland.

 

[Gav]

Gerard, maybe shame is the wrong word. Perhaps embarrassment would be more appropriate. Certainly, if the country were to vote against its political freedom, we would be the embarrassment of Europe.

Yes, Scotland will become a state but I don’t know what you are trying to say when you write “another country”, what country?

Economies of scale mean nothing when you are controlled from another country and have no say over your own affairs. I take it then, that you would feel better if Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria and Portugal were all part of the British state as well. I'm pretty sure though that they would have something to say about giving up their independence.

You say you don’t know where I get the last bit from. It was from what you wrote earlier.

 

[Devon]

What might be considered shameful, by future generations, (because this vote is not just for the current generation) was to have been part of the camp that voted to deny Scotland reclaiming its nationhood . However being a democrat i will be content to accept the result
It is however worth noting that, the gaining and retention of nationhood has often been a prize that people have been prepared to pay a large price for up to and including the FULL price
We on the other hand are simply quibbling over our own ££ and some fiscal and social policy.
It seems to me that we owe it to those who come after us to give them ( and our current peoples) the chance of self determination
Then let us make of it what we will.
The people of this country will then HAVE to participate in " grown up politics" instead of the psuedo parliament with it,s current crop of tinkering ,cardboard cut out, kid on,naval gazing politicians that have the great "get out of jail card" of "stuff reserved to westminster"


This time the whole population get a say, which was not the case preceeding the union of the crowns.
Simply not credible that we cannot be our own nation once again

So you don't want an Independent Scotland to join the EU then? And not having a currency and central bank is quibbling over 'your' own '££' whatever that is? Do you even understand how currency works?
The present plan for an Independent Scotland is as well researched and surreal as the Darian adventure 300 years ago; have some Scots learnt anything?
So to summarise; you want an Independent Scotland, with no currency or central bank or financial regulator, ruled by an unelected cartel far away in Europe that you have very little/no say in? That might be considered not only shameful but more then a little bit stupid by future generations if they are lumbered with sorting your 'Independent Scotland' out.

 

[gerarddwatts]

I'm afraid 'quibbling over our own ££' and 'some fiscal and social policy' are of vital importance. You cannot dismiss them as you do. Emotions and roses won't pay the bills. 'Let us make of it what we will' is simply not good enough.

To dismiss these issues in so cavalier a fashion is hugely irresponsible, and will land Scotland in immense difficulty for generations to come. If you do not see that, you will be failing all those who come after.

I am saddened that even those proponents of separatism apparently cannot grasp the simple realities of Scotland leaving the UK to become another state....another country.....they clearly won't be understanding what they are voting for and the implications of that vote.

 

[Gav]

Gerard, you have said it again... "another country". Are you suggesting that Scotland will become another country? If so, which one?? Strange. As for not understanding, it appears from what you have written that it is you who is confused.

Can we assume if you were to mention Fins or Danes or Latvians or Belgians or Dutch who live in their own independent countries, you would refer to them as proponents of separatism?

 

[Schtum]

Some people go for safety, others go for change. What the safety group fail to understand is that the best way to stay safe is to keep changing, otherwise the world changes around you and eventually bites you on the arse. It's also related to the short-termism which is endemic in today's society. This vote is about what kind of country and society you want your children and your children's children and your children's children's children and..... to live in.

 

[Voyager]

This vote is about what kind of country and society you want your children and your children's children and your children's children's children and..... to live in.

And therein lies the danger.

Each person in favour of Independence thinks that they will get their ideal utopian society. The reality will probably be different and may not be much different to what we have today - particularly if the party in power is one of those headquartered down south and in opposition to the rUK governing party.

Whichever party is in power after 2016 will have an enormous task on their hands and only a 5.5M population to fund it. Don't expect it to be roses all the way to the bright new dawn.

Future generations may be OK once the dust has settled but our generation could well be in for a very hard time.

If you think its worth the risk then vote Yes, but right now our Politicians haven't given us much to go on and haven't spelled out what the next 10 to 20 years would look like after Independence.

Did you see the "Referendum Debate" from Kirkcaldy on TV a week or so ago ?? What a disappointing load of old twaddle. The only one on the panel speaking sense was the lady with the Fashion Business representing the Business Community; as for the Politicians and Pundits - words fail me.

Hopefully we will get some more honest analysis coming out over the next five months, but I won't hold my breath as there are Politicians involved .

Bob.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

Some people go for safety, others go for change. What the safety group fail to understand is that the best way to stay safe is to keep changing, otherwise the world changes around you and eventually bites you on the arse. It's also related to the short-termism which is endemic in today's society. This vote is about what kind of country and society you want your children and your children's children and your children's children's children and..... to live in.

The problem is that none of the parties likely to form the government of an independent Scotland want to change. Have you read what Scottish labour proposes? It could have been written in the 1970's all about robbing the rich to pay the poor, raising the council tax and the top rate of tax. There seems to be no recognition that the world has changed and old tired socialist collectivism just does not work any more in the global economy we now have. Scottish labour were bitten on the bum when the voters turned to the SNP and soon the SNP will implode when the referendum rejects independence.

A devolved government in Scotland run by a coalition of of the mainstream centrist parties worked well even with the SNP as the largest group. The need to limit their spending to what the economy could afford and the inability to borrow to fund public services is a good way of forcing any government to address economic reality. Had the SNP failed to gain an overall majority and thus not been able to produce a referendum they would have continued to enjoy the support of a large section of the Scottish voting public including me. They failed to grasp however that although people supported their devolved government policies full independence was too great a risk to take and they have now nailed their future to that particular mast and will tear themselves apart when they lose. Interestingly if you listen to Jim Sillers, whose ideas are totally alien to me but who speaks a lot of sense about the political realities of independence, he also appears to think that the party he was once deputy leader of is finished regardless of the result of the referendum.

 

[gerarddwatts]

Gerard, you have said it again... "another country". Are you suggesting that Scotland will become another country? If so, which one?? Strange. As for not understanding, it appears from what you have written that it is you who is confused.

Can we assume if you were to mention Fins or Danes or Latvians or Belgians or Dutch who live in their own independent countries, you would refer to them as proponents of separatism?

I don't know how to explain.....Scotland becomes an independent, separate, nation. It leaves the UK. Of course Scotland becomes another country. Independent Scotland. Thats what its all about. Thats what the nats want. Not to be part of the UK. To be separate. To be another country.

Finns, Danes, etc etc all live in separate independent countries. Of course they are all separists. And happily so. Are you saying they're not?

If you haven't got it by now, I'm afraid I don't think I can help you any further.

 

[Toddy]

The Dirty Dozen - The case against BBC Scotland: Part 1

Very interesting.

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.ph...ty-dozen-the-case-against-bbc-scotland-part-1

 

[Gav]

Scotland becomes an independent... nation.

Of course Scotland becomes another country.

Yes, I understand that when the country gains independence we will have a normal idependent nation. That's obvious. But the country becoming another one?? What one are you suggesting it becomes?? The country will still be Scotland. It won't become another one. What it will become is independent like the vast majority of normal countries around the world. I understand it clearly. I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

Yes, I understand that when the country gains independence we will have a normal idependent nation. That's obvious. But the country becoming another one?? What one are you suggesting it becomes?? The country will still be Scotland. It won't become another one. What it will become is independent like the vast majority of normal countries around the world. I understand it clearly. I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas.

The country will still be Scotland but what will your national insurance number be after independence and on whose database will your contributions held be to calculate your pension entitlement? My daughter's in England will not change if Scotland pulls out of the United Kingdom so the changes will all have to be on our side of the border. It may not be a new name but it certainly will feel like a new country.