The results are in

[DrFarkoff]

HOw stupid do you want to make yourself??

It is NOT just a case of Ignition advance its the fuelling which is wrong!! Put in the right amount of fuel at the right time and spark at just the right place and you have an EFFICIENT engine

Even a 10% power increase would require a risky level of ignition advance. Maybe the OP should check with Hilltop how much advance has been dialled in for his bike. Either that or keep using the Shell V Power and pray that your knock sensors keep retarding the sparks.

Agreed Andres Between Roamer and this Fuckwit this morning we have our own gathering of Experts

Whom it would seem Happily question other abilities whilst showing no evidence of their prowess with spanners et al

What's your interest in Hilltop and do you have a connection with another tuning/dyno/motorcycle shop?

Given your previous posts you seem VERY keen to 'rubbish' Hilltop.

Andres

 

[Speedy1959]

When I first arrived at Hilltop ..BEFORE I even took my bike to the rolling road Dyno Geoff said to me "yours will be producing 78- 81hp at the wheel!
Lo and behold his prediction was spot on.
He also mentioned he's done around 600 Boxer engines to date !

Pipe....put in.......
Smoke it !!

 

[DrFarkoff]

Laughing here! Good Answer

I think we will have to start the Hilltop Appreciation Society

When I first arrived at Hilltop ..BEFORE I even took my bike to the rolling road Dyno Geoff said to me "yours will be producing 78- 81hp at the wheel!
Lo and behold his prediction was spot on.
He also mentioned he's done around 600 Boxer engines to date !

Pipe....put in.......
Smoke it !!

 

[Speedy1959]

Laughing here! Good Answer

I think we will have to start the Hilltop Appreciation Society

Thank you Dr....
I felt a little irked that so late in this post we still are getting comments from people who haven't had the remap or who have a phone allergy !

 

[Roger 04 RT]

I don't think we have to feel too badly for Geoff and Hilltop. All this controversy is good PR. Some saying the gain is impossible others rushing in to defend him and praise his work. It doesn't get better than that for a business like his.

And as far as Geoff being too busy to explain why his first Dyno runs show 80 HP instead of something close to the R1200 specification (hint: it is not due to detuning for emissions) but having plenty of time to field phone calls, be serious. Steptoe, who is very busy and very good, always has time for a pithy reply--"step back from the motorcycle, put down the wrench."

Enjoy your bike sspeed and don't let those asking questions spoil your day.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

.

On the basis that many on this forum have had their bike remapped and there isn't a single reported engine failure as a result I would suggest the question on ignition advance etc is irrelevant. The point is that people prefer their bike post Hilltop...as did I. I have gone down the AF-XEID route this time more out of curriosity and the lack of desire for another bash up the M1 rather than any concerns.

If the AF route was not open I would go to Hilltop. I confess I do not understand how a naturally aspirated ending can gain the power increases quoted but actually don't care. IF I go to Hilltop again, I will tell Jeff not to bother on the print outs...I will just ride home happy on a smoother, punchier bike.

Is it worth £350... Again if it took Jeff 5 mins to down load the map the answer is yes. It is the experience and development work I am paying for....not the time I spend in his workshop.


Oh bugger, I said I wouldn't comment again...oh well!

I've always wondered how a Hilltop-ed bike would run with lambda-shifted O2 sensors (LC-2 or AF-XIED).

 

[Wreford Miles]

Hilltop threads have people missing the obvious...

all the time is spent debating the end result, a result we mainly agree on either because you like what it says on the graph and/or you like how it feels when you ride

Accept this, the end result is 100% right: It does produce that power and it does ride better

And ask yourself this: Maybe the starting measure was not as strong as it could have been?





.... that said, once you've had it done its no longer important what it was before because you are (1.) initially happy because you have a piece of paper that says look how much power you've got for just £350 (2.) then very happy because of the way your bike rides.

Repeat Hilltop users go straight to point (2.)



oh and just to confirm over the last few days Ive been cracking the throttle open at 4000 rpm in 3rd and there is no fucking way you are going to get a power wheelie, can I suggest that the OP made a shitty hesitating on off the throttle over take and cannot differentiate between a jerky ride and a wheelie

 

[Packer]

Agreed Andres Between Roamer and this Fuckwit this morning we have our own gathering of Experts

Whom it would seem Happily question other abilities whilst showing no evidence of their prowess with spanners et al

If Geoff at Hilltop didn't get the results he would very quickly cease to have a supply of race teams using his services. We can assume therefore that he knows a thing or ten. People shouting about the "impossibility" of such large hikes in power appear to be blinkered, biased or both or have some other axe to grind. By reducing combustion efficiency to conform with emissions regulations and building in tolerance of poor quality fuel I'm certain that it would be easy to reduce the power of an optimised engine by 20% - 30%. This is supported by the gains in power that accompanied the introduction of fuel injection and electronic engine management, simply more efficient than the old mechanical systems.

When I had my Super Tenere done Geoff told me up front that I wouldn't see anything like the gains that are possible on the boxer GS's as the Yam is much nearer optimal from the box. His efforts still made a huge difference in terms of smooth pickup from a neutral throttle, torque at all rev's and to a degree outright power on full throttle even though I'd asked for the highest flat torque curve possible and peak combustion efficiency. It was improved so much that I don't even bother with the "T" mode now, even if I'm crawling through jammed traffic or riding off road.

 

[stanley]

I've always wondered how a Hilltop-ed bike would run with lambda-shifted O2 sensors (LC-2 or AF-XIED).

The remap runs from knowing what is going into the engine, not what is coming out.

And ask yourself this: Maybe the starting measure was not as strong as it could have been?

My point exactly: No smoke nor mirrors, the standard map just does not respond well to wide-open-throttle.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

...

My point exactly: No smoke nor mirrors, the standard map just does not respond well to wide-open-throttle.

Should we really believe that a stock R1200GS with a spec of 104HP only produces 80HP?

 

[Packer]

Should we really believe that a stock R1200GS with a spec of 104HP only produces 80HP?

104HP measured in a lab at the crankshaft of a carefully assembled high spec engine running at peak efficiency probably on high grade fuel

80HP measured at the back wheel from a production engine that will vary from specification in a number of ways

Bendy previously mentioned gears rightly, on the basis of his link, identifying a 2% loss for straight gears on a parallel shaft. There are three shafts in a GS box with helical (quieter but less efficient) gears so two lots of meshing gears between engine and drive shaft. Say 4% - 5% loss in total. I think that a crown wheel and pinion will have a substantially greater % loss, say 3% - 4%, and don't forget the losses in two universal joints on the drive shaft itself, say 1% each. That leaves you with about 93HP at the back wheel from an optimal engine in laboratory conditions. I've ignored losses in bearings.

104 -2½% -2½% -1% -1% -4% = 93.02HP

 

[Speedy1959]

Before anyone suggests I have a clapped example of a GS my bike had 12,500 miles on at the time of remap.
So I can't see it being a below average example of that engine.
One other point to make is that the power and torque increases are right across the Rev range and NOT just at full throttle as someone earlier hinted at !
Lastly because I am a returning customer to Geoff I did not pay £350!!
The discounted fee is for you to discuss with Geoff!

 

[Roger 04 RT]

104HP measured in a lab at the crankshaft of a carefully assembled high spec engine running at peak efficiency probably on high grade fuel

80HP measured at the back wheel from a production engine that will vary from specification in a number of ways

Bendy previously mentioned gears rightly, on the basis of his link, identifying a 2% loss for straight gears on a parallel shaft. There are three shafts in a GS box with helical (quieter but less efficient) gears so two lots of meshing gears between engine and drive shaft. Say 4% - 5% loss in total. I think that a crown wheel and pinion will have a substantially greater % loss, say 3% - 4%, and don't forget the losses in two universal joints on the drive shaft itself, say 1% each. That leaves you with about 93HP at the back wheel from an optimal engine in laboratory conditions. I've ignored losses in bearings.

104 -2½% -2½% -1% -1% -4% = 93.02HP

I follow your numbers but someone pointed out earlier that most Dyno curves are corrected to reflect engine HP. 93-95 HP as measured at the rear wheel is easier to understand than the 80HP that Hilltop predicted (sspeed post) and measured.

 

[Engineer]

Hilltop has to make hay while the sun shines - soon with Euro 5 or whatever the next level is, the bike will be tested to ensure that it complies with emissions standards throughout its life by continuously recording and storing data, which is then checked at MOT or any other time.

So I can understand Hilltop milking the current situation as quickly as they can before the bottom drops out of their market - so a little economy with the actuality from them is understandable.

 

[stanley]

Should we really believe that a stock R1200GS with a spec of 104HP only produces 80HP

With a wide-open-throttle from 2,000rpm and a rubbish standard map..... Yes!

Hilltop has to make hay while the sun shines - soon with Euro 5 or whatever the next level is, the bike will be tested to ensure that it complies with emissions standards throughout its life by continuously recording and storing data, which is then checked at MOT or any other time.

If that ever happens, it won't be retrospective. A remapped bike should still pass anyway.

 

[Wreford Miles]

104 -2½% -2½% -1% -1% -4% = 93.02HP

93 BHP increased to 104BHP does not seem as good as 83BHP increased to 104BHP

When mine was done I did notice that the first reading was also taken quite quickly from a bike that I would say was not up to temp... But none of it matters, then end result is all that counts.

....people have spent years debating the final results, time for a new era of debating the initial reading, enjoy

Me I'm off to ride home and will enjoy flipping the bike through the 2nd gear roundabouts on the business park knowing I can because I've got lovely fuelling - Thanks Geoff

 

[comberjohn]

Not sure I completely agree with the engineer regarding Geoff's motivation, but he does raise an interesting point.
To those of you who are changing your exhaust to a de cat system, don't part with your original fronts if you still have them.
If an emissions test ever becomes part of an mot, you may be in trouble. On a car, a catalytic converter is not a requirement for the mot, but it's unlikely you'll get it through without one.
So, you've got your full Remus system and your Hilltop re map and its lifting the front wheel all over the place.
Brussels brings in more stringent controls for bike mots, do you have a plan B?
Think it'll never happen? Dream on.
Not criticising de cat headers(have one myself) or hilltop re maps, just saying that it's something you should maybe think about now.
Me? I'll refit my standard headers and turn my AF-XIED units down to '1' for a week or two before the test then back up afterwards. Sorted.

 

[Beemerman59]

Brussels brings in more stringent controls for bike mots, do you have a plan B?
Think it'll never happen? Dream on.

I'm sure that won't happen now.

 

[comberjohn]

Hope you're right!
Now, where did I put those open megaphones.

 

[Bendy toy]

UK MOT rule changes have historically been to vehicles built after the new rules come into force. For example a pre cat (brown) Ford would not be subject to MOT emissions tests if it was built before 1995 (I believe). A pre 1995 Volvo 740 would have a catalyst but would not need to undergo the emissions test.

So, it the bike MOT emissions laws changed yesterday, a 2008 BMW bike complete with OEM catalyst would be no better off than the same bike with a Remus, Akra, Yobbo Brand system as long as its not too loud and isn't blowing smoke.

This does not apply elsewhere. Italy for example scrapped many perfectly good cars some with very low emissions simply because they did not meet a specific Euro standard (I think was Euro 4). Basically is it Euro 4(?) and does it pass the emissions test? If it's not Euro 4 you can't get an "MOT" and you can no longer use it on the roads.