The Saga Continues - part 2

[roddy]

I'm having a wee guess here so bear with me folks.

-with the plugs out the engine spins freely
-plugs in, the engine struggles to spin and start

if the valves weren't set correctly or the timings way off, as the engine completes a full 360 cycle would the compression pressure not build up ? or would the fact that the inlet valves open mean any build up of pressure would "backfire" via the inlet valves ?

sorry if the above is a lot o'pish, just thinking out aloud.

Ah it would seem Jaythro has asked far better what I was trying too

 

[ebbo]

Guys please bear with me, I'm by no means a mechanic, so my terms etc may be incorrect, I find myself "parroting" what I am told

When the bike went to the garage (DWR in Aylesbury) they plugged in the compressed air into right cylinder and air was escaping out the oil filler, they called them oil seals, must be piston rings then? However, these were replaced. I agree that in theory this should return the engine to its original pressure.

This is the second ring gear to be stripped by the starter, the second was replaced by myself with meticulous attention to detail (Lap top with the manual next to me at all times, all torques, greases/oils as per the manual).

I would side with the theory that I may have made a mistake if this was the only gear to get stripped however as the original one went as well, I assume the problem to be someway linked to the work done on the engine, thus when I replaced the gear and starter I ended up fixing the symptoms not the cause



I have removed the plugs and the engine turns fine.


I have thought this, I replaced the old starter via a local starter guru who sourced me an identical (theoretically) new one, looks the same?

The starter is a Valeo with the numbers C187259A on the side of the motor and DEM.D6RA75 on the solenoid.

It gripped at first then seemed to fight loose, I would guess I tried it 10 times, assuming that due to having to change fuel lines and connectors I would have to get the fuel to run through all the pipes again. But not during any of the attempts did it turn the engine cleanly, it always sounded like a battle.

HELP

So, am I right in thinking this engine turned over no problem on the starter with the plugs out?

Anyway, have you tried bump starting this beast?

 

[Mike1150]

So, am I right in thinking this engine turned over no problem on the starter with the plugs out?

Anyway, have you tried bump starting this beast?

I didnt try turn it without plugs via the starter.

and yes I tried bumping it when I first had this prob, no way was it going to start, even in the higher gearsand feet leaving the pegs whilst I jumped down on the seat. It has nobblies on too??

 

[Packer]

I think that the starter died before someone suggested that he try spinning the engine over with the plugs out.

If it turns freely with the plugs out using the rear wheel and your hand try spinning it over on the starter when it's repaired also with the plugs out.

First do the recommended Jaythro checks, is it turning the correct way? In fact check the direction of rotation of the starter before you install it! Use your jump leads but either grip it very tightly or clamp it in a work mate or vise as there is considerable torque kick when it spins up. Black lead negative battery terminal and to the starter motor case, red to positive terminal on battery and bolt on the end of the starter where it connects by heavy cable to the solenoid.

Is the valve timing correct both sides? If all seems good but it still doesn't immediately spin up on the starter stop trying. Pull in the clutch and try again. Still no good stop trying and report back!

I can imagine that if the motor is spinning the wrong way it will cause problems with timing chains etc.

 

[Mike1150]

I think that the starter died before someone suggested that he try spinning the engine over with the plugs out.

If it turns freely with the plugs out using the rear wheel and your hand try spinning it over on the starter when it's repaired also with the plugs out.

First do the recommended Jaythro checks, is it turning the correct way? In fact check the direction of rotation of the starter before you install it! Use your jump leads but either grip it very tightly or clamp it in a work mate or vise as there is considerable torque kick when it spins up. Black lead negative battery terminal and to the starter motor case, red to positive terminal on battery and bolt on the end of the starter where it connects by heavy cable to the solenoid.

Is the valve timing correct both sides? If all seems good but it still doesn't immediately spin up on the starter stop trying. Pull in the clutch and try again. Still no good stop trying and report back!

I can imagine that if the motor is spinning the wrong way it will cause problems with timing chains etc.

I wish I had tried to do that before I wrecked the gear, however, I can say when the bike was only firing on one pot, it started fine!

as for the direction of the starter, Im heading over to the guy I bought it from in the morning to get him to run some tests and to make sure it is the correct one!

 

[Stewart H]

What does the invoice from the "repairers" actually say they did? and can you post pics of the dead ring gears.

Stewart

 

[Bastille]

Just a thought. Does the rim gear fit either way, never having seen the GS one, or is it directional, i.e. do the teeth have a lead-in as does the dog on the starter. What I'm trying to say is, can you put the rim gear on the wrong way!

 

[t'other dave]

Without wanting to sound like a tw@t you should have took it back to the dealer if you paid for a repair and it's still the same. It might end up costing more buy just p1ssing about, some great advice has been posted but it's hard to diagnose over a phone or internet and could lead you down the wrong route.

 

[Mike1150]

Without wanting to sound like a tw@t you should have took it back to the dealer if you paid for a repair and it's still the same. It might end up costing more buy just p1ssing about, some great advice has been posted but it's hard to diagnose over a phone or internet and could lead you down the wrong route.

I'm with you on that Dave!!

I'm arranging for it to get diagnossed at BMW next week (they've agreed to collect, drop it off and have a goog look for a decent rate) - I agree that Ill just end up fixing and probably breaking bits that may not even need to be touched!! However, I will be ripping the back off again to change the ring gear, weirdly I'm looking forward to it

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

The starter motor is a pre-engaged type.

The solenoid actuation actually operates the lever arm that throws the gear into mesh BEFORE rotational motion happens.

The contacts in the solenoid are connected at full throw - therefore there cannot be any rotation until full throw and full engagement of the gears.

A flat battery will therefore usually have enough juice to throw the gear in - but then not enough to turn the gear.
The noise you'll hear is a clank - but no engine spinning.

If the battery is VERY dead - the gear will be thrown in, but the battery voltage will be so low when the solenoid connects it will drop to nothing and disconnect and the gear will be pulled out, voltage will go up and the gear will be thrown back in.
This noise will sound like intermittent clanking.

To actually chew the gears up must mean something is out of alignment in the axial plane - could be your new starter is spinning the gear before fully engaged.

If the ring gear was spaced wrongly towards the engine the same would happen
If the starter is fitted to far from the ring gear - same thing.

Take it to someone that knows what they are looking at

 

[Steptoe]

If the starter is fitted to far from the ring gear - same thing.

makes you wonder if the new "looks the same" starter motor has the locating dowels fitted and isn't just floating on the two allen bolts.

 

[Mike1150]

makes you wonder if the new "looks the same" starter motor has the locating dowels fitted and isn't just floating on the two allen bolts.

This is what the guys at BMW said, and worringly I'm sure there is only one small dowel on the engine casing (not dowels )and nothing else?!

 

[Colt]

can I ask should there be locating dowel on the starter motor?
i have removed my starter r1150gs 2002 and there is not on on it?
i have got one used(nearly new) starter from an 1150 and there isn't one on

and i have a used 1100 starter motor that has one one?
looked on realoem parts and cant see a dowel?
thanks.

 

[davegs]

Saga

This would make a good TV series, get E & C doing it!
Dave gs
Took mine off a few weeks ago and I don't think ther was a dowel on that either no probs though. 1150.

 

[Steptoe]

can I ask should there be locating dowel on the starter motor?
i have removed my starter r1150gs 2002 and there is not on on it?
i have got one used(nearly new) starter from an 1150 and there isn't one on

and i have a used 1100 starter motor that has one one?
looked on realoem parts and cant see a dowel?
thanks.

The dowel maybe on the engine housing, but in any case you'll have a hole in the starter casing so you'll know where to look on the engine case.

 

[Colt]

thanks, guess i was missing a dowel?
its not in the engine case.but i have on a spare starter.
all sorted now.

best of luck mike

 

[Mike1150]

Back to square one

Unfortunatly BMW have no idea what it could be, they cant run anymore tests till a new ring gear is fitted....

what a quandry??

Anyway, will get bike back today, order another ring gear and fit it this week!!

Gonna try taking the full transmition off in one lump this time.....

 

[Shep]

Stump up the cash and get Steptoe to fit the starter ring, if it breaks again in the future he's only little so you should be able to knock him about a bit till he submits, I've heard he hates a well executed Chinese Burn

Seriously though, give the bike to somebody who knows what he is doing

Shep

 

[Mike1150]

Niel do you collect from Aylesbury?....please pm a quote to me

 

[Fanum]

I cannot see a properly fitted ring gear failing after one attempt, even if presented with a totally non turning engine, they do not appear to self destruct in the cases of hydraulically locked "fording" motors, they will bend conrods first, something is amiss here.

Stewart

Nope.

Hydrolock a GS engine in a ford and it'll strip the starter motor gears or the ring gear......or (in the case of a 1200 I saw it happen to on a fords trip I ran in Leics) the starter motor will rip the starter casing apart.

I've seen three GS's go with it- two times (on 11xx's) taking teeth off the ring gear and once (1200) the starter casing itself- never a con-rod though.


I'll see if I can find the photos of it


EDIT....here we go, a 1200's starter after a race through a ford