Newbie - Broken R1150GS HELP

[CueBall]

behind the pulley there is a shaped disc with a gateway cut out and this has the dropped lip at the centre

Which fits into the notch on the crank

Also make sure not to wreck the HES by rotating the crank before it is fully seated and aligned !!

So, crack off the pulley nut (via either of two methods)
Slide pulley off crank shaft revealing shaped disc (if it doesn't come off with the pulley), note that it locates into a notch on the crank shaft and then pull the disc away.
Note position of HES, unbolt and remove
Replace HES as per position of old HES and bolt it in place
slide disc onto crank shaft aligning the lip with the notch
replace pulley and nut
tighten nut to 50NM
then relocate new pig tail wiring as it was originally?

 

[DrFarkoff]

So, crack off the pulley nut (via either of two methods)
Slide pulley off crank shaft revealing shaped disc (if it doesn't come off with the pulley), note that it locates into a notch on the crank shaft and then pull the disc away.
Note position of HES, unbolt and remove
Replace HES as per position of old HES and bolt it in place
slide disc onto crank shaft aligning the lip with the notch
replace pulley and nut
tighten nut to 50NM
then relocate new pig tail wiring as it was originally?

Ah Say Boooiiiii!!!

Ah Say Boooooiiiiii !!

I think You have got it!

100 percent Sir

proceed with caution!

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Well done for your clear and very detailed fault finding and write up. We don’t usually get such clear information from the original poster (You) to help us help you diagnose the fault.

Being new to the bike you have also gained some useful knowledge. Where things are, which connector is for which devise and how the bike systems function. Tracking the fault down to two likely faulty components.

Incidentally…….

The HES you have fitted is not an original item. The wiring is not correct far too thick for what is required. Besides as you can see from the condition of the wiring the wire is compromised by splits in the insulation leading to corrosion and a high resistance which would reduce the amplitude of the trigger pulses.

Even if the fault turned out to not be the HES, and as the HES is key to engine running, I would still replace it anyway just for the damaged wiring.

Ian

 

[Steptoe]

. Will give the "tap starter" method a whirl on a 2ft wrench and hope it doesn't break my arm!

It won’t, believe me. A 10 year old could hold it, surprisingly there’s hardly any force. I’ve used the method for years on customers bikes.

 

[CueBall]

Well done for your clear and very detailed fault finding and write up. We don’t usually get such clear information from the original poster (You) to help us help you diagnose the fault.

Being new to the bike you have also gained some useful knowledge. Where things are, which connector is for which devise and how the bike systems function. Tracking the fault down to two likely faulty components.

Thanks, years of working on various machinery helps, though this is my first older generation GS - which I opted for specifically due its relatively mechanical functionality (and therefore easier fixes) vs newer generation GS's which require a laptop and a degree in computer sciences just to diagnose haha.

As you say, lots of useful knowledge gained so far too, mostly around the loom, which I am in the process of cleaning, tidying up, re-wrapping and renewing cable ties (with less tension than the factory ties, what did they do those up with ffs - a loom needs a little freedom to move, not be restrained in place to within mm's of the tie actually breaking through the cable insulation - and routed in such a manner that avoids as much of any moving parts being able to wear through it over time).

The HES you have fitted is not an original item. The wiring is not correct far too thick for what is required. Besides as you can see from the condition of the wiring the wire is compromised by splits in the insulation leading to corrosion and a high resistance which would reduce the amplitude of the trigger pulses.

That's interesting... You can certainly see the individual wire insulation has broken down exposing the core and that green corrosion has formed (and that's just in the area I/we can see outside of the protective sleeve).

Even if the fault turned out to not be the HES, and as the HES is key to engine running, I would still replace it anyway just for the damaged wiring.

New HES ordered from Motorworks (albeit their pattern version for the moment) - I do hope it's the HES, as if not, it could be a failed coil. If it's neither the coil or the HES then that's me all out of ideas - Hopefully it won't come to that.

Will keep everyone that has been so kind to help me out updated - may take 4-5 days for parts to arrive and fit and for me to sort out the loom so that I am happy with it - What a great community.

 

[CueBall]

It won’t, believe me. A 10 year old could hold it, surprisingly there’s hardly any force.

Blimey, you weren't joking... That was easy!

I assume, possibly wrongly, that to re-tighten to 50Nm, you would put it in 1st, and that will be enough to get it torqued up without the crank spinning?

The HES you have fitted is not an original item. The wiring is not correct far too thick for what is required

It seems to be a genuine Bosch item, at least it has Bosch stamped in the plate and has the Bosch logo on both sensors (image link below). It could be the original part from new too (making it 25 years old), as it was corroded in place and needed a little tap to free it. That being said, it looks like it has been removed and replaced once (or moved slightly), given there are two distinct bolt marks in all three bolt holes in the plate.

New photo · Tuesday, Jun 24 📸

Tap to view!

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[DrFarkoff]

@CueBall

Don't tighten it that way

1st gear and someone with their foot on the brake and just use a torque wrench

When you are cracking it ??

The only thing it can do is loosen the bolt

Tightening? It's only going to get tighter and maybe bite you!!

 

[Steptoe]

Blimey, you weren't joking... That was easy!

The amount of dire warnings I’ve had when recommending that method to people - dislocations, broken fingers/arms, damage from the wrench hitting bodywork etc etc
The only thing I do warn about is if you’re changing the HEL if it has an interment fault and sometimes starts/runs is to disconnect the electrical plugs to the injectors ……. You don’t want the engine to fire up and start running

 

[CueBall]

@CueBall

Don't tighten it that way

1st gear and someone with their foot on the brake and just use a torque wrench

When you are cracking it ??

The only thing it can do is loosen the bolt

Tightening? It's only going to get tighter and maybe bite you!!

No I wouldn't tighten it with the starter motor lol... (wrong direction of spin anyway).

I cracked it off with the starter motor easily, that's a great tip, so simple...

I was just double checking how to tighten to 50Nm, I did think it was 1st gear and foot brake (just to stop the crank from turning).

 

[CueBall]

The amount of dire warnings I’ve had when recommending that method to people - dislocations, broken fingers/arms, damage from the wrench hitting bodywork etc etc

Worked a treat, so simple...

Having worked on HGV's I have had 4 chaps hanging off a 15ft scaffold pole on some bolts, with another chap applying the oxy torch to the bugger at the same time. 50Nm is finger tight by comparison lol.

 

[CueBall]

Update... It wasn't the HES

Replaced the HES with a nice shiny new one, replaced everything exactly as it came apart (I even scribed the position of the old HES, so I could replace the new one exactly in the same place). Put everything back together with the correct torques.

Ignition on, twist throttle twice, ignition off... Wait 2 mins... Ignition on (fuel pump primes) press starter, it spins over happily but just will not start!

Plugs out, no spark on either side! It is fuelling on both sides (wet plugs and you can smell it with the plugs out when you crank the starter!)

So now it can only be the coil - I have ordered one, but why would a coil come back to life one day (after a period of not starting, then fail completely the next)?

If it isn't the coil, what on earth can it possibly be? I am lost now...

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Remove the connector from the coil and test for voltage.

Pin 2 should be 12v with ignition on.
Pin 1 should be a negative string of pulses from the motronic as the engine rotates. You might be able to see this visually with an LED across the terminals.

However, Pin 1 also connects to the tachometer to give you RPM. And as you said the RPM is good when the engine was running, it points to the motronic outputs correct.

There isn’t anything else but the HT coil, or a possible wiring fault.

 

[CueBall]

Remove the connector from the coil and test for voltage.

Pin 2 should be 12v with ignition on.
Pin 1 should be a negative string of pulses from the motronic as the engine rotates. You might be able to see this visually with an LED across the terminals.

However, Pin 1 also connects to the tachometer to give you RPM. And as you said the RPM is good when the engine was running, it points to the motronic outputs correct.

I have just had a look, I have x2 wires there, one green and one black. The green wire has a permanent 12V with the ignition on (13.7V in my case as recently fully charged it as a precaution after all the cranking on the starter). The black signal wire (I assume it is signal) is difficult to determine as I only have a volt meter, how should I connect that to give me something I can see visually with a volt meter?

There are a few signs that someone has been into the various looms previously:

The ignition switch connector and its sleeving appear relatively new (bright orange plug, whereas the loom connector is faded orange) - I know it works though, as I am turning the ignition on/off, fuel pump primes, lights on dash illuminate, starter works etc etc.

The wiring leading down from the left and right handlebar switches to their loom connectors has been re-wrapped in Tesa fabric loom tape which is clean (not dusty). Possibly an aesthetic thing by a previous owner though as the original rubber sheaths may have degraded and fallen off, leaving bare wires visible (although all individual wire insulation appears good as I have been through that and re-wrapped it again).

That said, the main loom from the Motronic to all other elements (including the the pair to the coil) remains in its original factory loom tape and hasn't been touched.

I want to go back through the switches again, just to double check, I know the clutch and neutral switch work as the starter button/motor wont do anything when it's in gear but it will when in neutral (or if I pull the clutch in when in gear, the starter will work). I know the kill switch is ok as the fuel pump primes each time it's flicked on/off - but I need to understand the side stand switch - If I am correct, the side stand switch shouldn't make any difference (working or not) if the engine is in neutral, as the Motronic only looks at the side stand switch if you move out of neutral and into gear with the side stand down - Is that right?

 

[CueBall]

Interestingly, researching various forums (mostly here and ADVrider), I have now found three cases in the last 5 years where owners have had identical symptoms to mine, where the Motronic was at fault.

In all three cases, there was no-spark - The owners checked wires throughout their looms, replaced the HES, spark plugs, leads & coil first, but to no avail - In all three cases when they swapped out their Motronic for another "used" unit - their bikes started straight away...

I was under the impression the Motronic was supposed to be bullet proof?

 

[Dosa]

Sounds electrical and the guys above have you covered. Just a tip on the fuel lines,, I cut my fuel lines just under the side cover, fitted in line connectors and clamps, coloured ring on one line to match them. So it is easier to disconnect them. Also a mini clamp with a swinging leg that was intended for a fish tank , 2 M8 bolts with the thread cut off to make plugs for the fuel lines. This helps stop petrol spills removing the tank.

 

[Tinytim]

Interestingly, researching various forums (mostly here and ADVrider), I have now found three cases in the last 5 years where owners have had identical symptoms to mine, where the Motronic was at fault.

In all three cases, there was no-spark - The owners checked wires throughout their looms, replaced the HES, spark plugs, leads & coil first, but to no avail - In all three cases when they swapped out their Motronic for another "used" unit - their bikes started straight away...

I was under the impression the Motronic was supposed to be bullet proof?

Please excuse the following waffle, but I was just going to add after your last post earlier this afternoon, something similar that happened to me. Couple of years ago, I did some tidying up on the old 1150gs . Subframe off, battery box , front side small frames etc ..all for powder coating. This included undoing the mountings for the Motronic unit but without disturbing it in any way. Once all back together I couldn't get it to fire at all. I spent many hours during the Winter pouring over the tech and other sections here and went through every step of advice/knowledge/procedure methodically and in case I missed something, several times over) all to no avail. In the end I admitted defeat and trailered it to Steve at Rainbow up here in Yorkshire. I wrote out everything I'd done to give him an idea but after 6 weeks or maybe more, he kept updating me that he even going through everything I'd documented, he couldn't find the problem .....
even after sharing it with a few of his fellow mechanics. Finally after 2 months he called to say he'd sorted it....he decided as a last resort, to take the Motronic unit off his old GS and try it on mine. Eurekakakak. ... Problem solved once I'd sourced a unit off EBay for about £50.

 

[CueBall]

as a last resort, to take the Motronic unit off his old GS and try it on mine. Eurekakakak. ... Problem solved once I'd sourced a unit off EBay for about £50.

So that's four cases now lol... (and that's only owners active on forums)...

Also, for fun, I have just ordered a warranted "working" Motronic from Ebay for exactly £50 too - Might as well, I've already spent over £250 in ignition related parts with Motorworks which haven't solved the problem, plus countless hours going through miles of loom cables which all check out fine...

I don't think it's the coil, they are an inert part that doesn't usually fail completely and suddenly - Meaning that it can only be the so called "bullet proof" Motronic after that.

 

[DrFarkoff]

I don't think it's the coil, they are an inert part that doesn't usually fail completely and suddenly - Meaning that it can only be the so called "bullet proof" Motronic after that.

Connect a 12 volt bulb across the coil connections An Indicator bulb is pretty good does it flash when you crank ??

Its getting signal!


Did you open it and look for water ingress ?? HAs someone put a chip in it and its vibrated loose ?

Corrosion on pins or interior ??

I have only ever come across one ECU issue and it was a 1200 That would not send the start signal "intermittently"

 

[CueBall]

Did you open it and look for water ingress ?? HAs someone put a chip in it and its vibrated loose ?

Corrosion on pins or interior ??

Just done that, it appears brand new in there as if I am the first person to crack it open since it was new... Here's a link to a pic...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pdBpZ9L6eRt5xy4FA

Connect a 12 volt bulb across the coil connections An Indicator bulb is pretty good does it flash when you crank ??

Just to double check, connect a bulb across the coils connector pins (green & black)?

 

[DrFarkoff]

Just done that, it appears brand new in there as if I am the first person to crack it open since it was new... Here's a link to a pic...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pdBpZ9L6eRt5xy4FA


Is that a standard BM chip?? Cannot zoom pic in enough

Just to double check, connect a bulb across the coils connector pins (green & black)?

Yup just the Wiring harness No coil connected