RISE NOW AND BE A NATION AGAIN !
- Thread starter ~Stef~
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Toddy
Registered user
The positive case for the Union?
I’ve spent a long time asking anyone that supports Westminster instead of supporting Scotland and intends to vote no to give me a positive case for supporting Westminster. To this date I’ve had none. None at all.
I looked on the “Better Together” website and the only thing I could find was marked “the +’ve case”, so that’s all I have to go on.
http://bettertogether.net/pages/the-ve-case
Under that tab on their website is the considered positive case for anyone in Scotland to support Westminster instead of supporting Scotland and to make things easier to read I’ll put my responses or rebuttals in square [ ] brackets so you can easily distinguish their words from mine ;-
———————————————————————–
“the +ve case”
[They couldn’t even be bothered typing the word “positive”, could they”]
“We love Scotland.”
[Don't they always say that? "I'm a proud Scot" is the first thing out of their mouths just before launching a verbal or written attack on the abilities or attributes or resources or people of Scotland - who are they trying to convince?]
“We are ambitious for Scotland’s people and Scotland’s possibilities. Our case is not that Scotland could not survive as a separate country – it is that there’s a better choice for our future.”
[So there we have it, a "little" admission that as an independent nation we would "survive" and the beginning of their argument to entice us to stay with the union and to support Westminster because that's what the no voter is voting for - Westminster, or weren't you aware of that?]
“A strong Scottish Parliament within the United Kingdom gives us the best of both worlds: real decision making power here in Scotland, as well as a key role in a strong and secure UK. Now and in the future Scotland is stronger as part of the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom is stronger with Scotland as a partner.”
[The Scottish Parliament is not strong because it can have its powers taken away without much fuss as was proved a couple of months back when the House of Lords removed laws and powers which held back the fracking industry. They carried out that removal in a morning session and then went for a cracking good lunch followed by a sleep in the main, well heated Lords debating chamber. Next point on the same paragraph, the key role they're talking about is the role to house the UK's weapons of mass destruction because that's the safest place to put it, well away from London and the South East of England. Another key role is for Scotland to produce money to be spent in London and the South East of England. I could go on here about the exporting capability holding the UK's balance of payments stable to shore up the rickety pound or the other key role to have our once prolific fishing fleet used as a pawn in negotiations with Europe. That's certainly not much of a partnership, is it? In other words, do I need to go on? Real decision making power? Don’t make me laugh.]
“In the UK the BBC and the Bank of England were founded by Scotsmen. The NHS was founded by a Welshman. The State Pension system was founded by an Englishman. Partners in these islands. Working together, better together.”
[It really doesn't matter (now) who founded these institutions, what really matters is what's happening now. The BBC whilst being a very good producer of straight entertainment also has a covert use as a propaganda channel for Westminster. We witness time after time where that organisation intentionally fails to give any sort of balance on the Scottish independence issues and actually seeks to spin stories or ignore others to the benefit of Westminster.
Next is the Bank of England, it's an independent bank and is already owned by every one of us. We have a share in it. We also have a share in the currency and have £4 billion on deposit in the Bank of England to back up every Scottish note in our pockets, did you realise that? If we are refused a currency union, I think we'd be making a hefty withdrawal, wouldn't we?
The NHS or the idea for the NHS was set up in the Highlands and Islands, if you are at all interested, Hazel Lewry one of our greatest bloggers wrote a history which charts the course of that into the present NHS and you can read it on the link at the bottom of this critique. The main worry here is that if enough people vote for Westminster then Westminster would remove the Scottish Govts powers over the Scottish NHS and embark on a privatisation of it the same as they're doing with the English NHS right now. You’d be surprised at the proportion of Coalition Cabinet Members right now who have a vested interest in a private healthcare company. Personally I would call that a conflict of interest.
http://simplify2014.com/ref/Health_Services_Full_Version.]
The state pension was indeed founded by an Englishman but the method used to fund it was broken by a Scot (Gordon Brown aided and abetted by Ed Balls). So when we look at the statement of “Partners in these islands. Working together, better together”, we have to ask ourselves why we’re being led so far down the garden path as a society in Scotland? We now need to stop that nonsense.]
“We are proud that we fought together to defeat fascism, and worked together to build a welfare state. But the case we make is about what’s best for Scotland’s future.”
[I agree that we worked well together during the conflicts that were forced on us and the Social State was a damn good idea but the Social State has been brutally taken apart by several administrations in Westminster. Indeed, it is apparent that several European nations similar in size to Scotland run much better Social States including much higher pensions.....much higher.]
“Prosperity
Times are really tough at home and really turbulent internationally. In the future Scotland’s prosperity will be strengthened by keeping the British connection. We need more growth, more jobs, and more prosperity in Scotland. We don’t need uncertainty, instability, and barriers for our businesses. In these tough and turbulent times, the size, strength and stability of the UK economy is a huge advantage for Scotland’s businesses. Scotland’s largest market is the rest of the UK. The UK is the world’s oldest and most successful single market and the UK has the oldest and most successful currency – the pound. Scottish businesses are increasingly having to win orders against smart, efficient and productive firms in foreign markets. These competitive challenges will only get tougher in the years ahead. The UK is better placed than a separate Scotland or England to help our businesses find and win new orders across the world.”
[There are two facets to my rebuttal here, first is that Westminster is an incredibly bad steward of the UK's finances and it is responsible for the dreadful state of the UK economy where we see public borrowing hitting £1.6 Trillion by 2016 and in fact stands at £1.3 Trillion as at time on writing this rebuttal. If in fact we put all the borrowings together on these islands and compare that to our combined GDP, we are sitting at 900% debt to GDP ratio which is just short of a Germany that experienced such hyper-inflation that it became cheaper to decorate your house with banknotes than it was to buy wallpaper, their debt to GDP ratio at that time was 913%. The UK economy is quite literally teetering on the very edge of a precipice. (Moneyweek “The end of Britain”) For the people all over these islands change is going to happen whether Scotland opts for independence or not and that change won’t be a pleasant one. So the statement that “In these tough and turbulent times, the size, strength and stability of the UK economy is a huge advantage for Scotland's businesses” is a wildly inaccurate assertion and one that belies the actual state of affairs right now.
So, having said that, what is the reality for Scotland? Let’s look at that.... A country is judged economically by its output, wealth and resources, Just over the last while we've seen proof that Scotland has what it takes to become a small, rich, normal, fairer, more equal, independent, European country and here's why.........
1. (OUTPUT) The Financial Times reported that an independent Scotland would be in the top 35 exporting nations on the planet. Not bad eh? Perhaps we could climb that a bit?
2. (WEALTH) Standard and Poor's, the international ratings agency that give credit ratings for entire countries released a report on an independent Scotland. Business for Scotland did an article on it and this is what they said, "In a massive blow to the credibility of the No Campaign’s scaremongering, the credit rating agency Standard & Poor’s released a report, clearly stating that an independent Scotland would be an investment grade economy. The report states emphatically that S&P would expect Scotland to ‘benefit from all the attributes of an investment-grade sovereign credit’ due to its ‘wealthy’ economy, and that it sees ‘no fundamental reason’ in terms of Scotland’s balance sheet why Scotland could not float its own currency (even though we do not intend to)." Yet again, not bad at all (and you're worrying what currency we'll have? tisk tisk)
3. (RESOURCES) The OECD (Organisation for European Co-operation and Development) gave us a projected worth of our oil and hung a £4 TRILLION price tag on it. The price that the Scottish govt talks about is the low, low price provided by the OBR (Office for Budget Responsibility) set up by George Osborne when the Tories got into power. That department haven't made a single prediction that's come anywhere near true since its inception. They put the price at £1.3 TRILLION. As a Scot looking forward to independence I can certainly live with the lower figure but the OECD do make good predictions and wouldn't it be nice to live in a country that is that rich with a social democratic "Nordic" style society. The opportunities that would give to everyone are mind boggling. Remember that the oil is a bonus and without the oil, Scotland has the same GDP as the rest of the UK.
We live in a low wage, high unemployment service economy. What we need to create is a high wage, low unemployment manufacturing economy. We can do it as all the building blocks are there. Just vote yes.]
“Security
In an uncertain world Scotland’s security will be strengthened as part of the United Kingdom. The British Armed Forces that protect us are the best in the world. In Scotland we are proud of the Forces and proud of the vital contribution that Scotland makes to them. As part of the UK we have real clout in the UN Security Council, NATO, the EU, and we have Embassies around the world.”
[“will be strengthened as part of the United Kingdom......”, far from seeing Scotland’s security strengthened, we’ve seen soldiers handed their P45’s, Royal Air Force bases closed and a Royal Navy that has become a shadow of what it once was, so much indeed that there are no vessels patrolling Scotland’s waters. The “clout” that they talk about is fast becoming a case of smoke and mirrors. Is that the defence strategy we need? No of course not. Scotland has in the eyes of the British Establishment become a “throw away” asset and will only be defended if the resource is available at the time. There is no pro-active defence in Scotland and we are looking at this being the case where our armed forces largely comprised of weekend soldiers will be with us for many decades to come.
We can sort out the defence of Scotland in a much more integrated way and treat our service men and women much better in an independent Scotland. We would be starting from nothing and looking to build a Scottish Defence Force from the ground up and when you consider we have next to nothing now, anything would be much better. Scotland will be budgeting on around £2.5 Billion per year and if you consider that we pay £4 Billion now and get nothing of use, that’s a step in the right direction.
As to our seats on various organisations is concerned, we’re already in Europe and that will continue and we’ll apply to get into the others. Many countries share embassies very effectively and an independent Scotland will start off in a position where we’ll have embassies in key parts of the world which will be added to as we rebuild our country.
The elephant in the room is of course Trident, nuclear submarines (Polaris) were forced upon our country and that has caused economic strife on the Clyde as it has become apparent that the MOD blocked an oil boom on the Clyde in the 80’s to prevent inconvenience to subs arriving at and leaving Faslane. As soon as we get rid of those disgusting weapons, it has been announced in Holyrood that landing the oil in the Clyde would commence as soon as practical. Glasgow and Ayrshire need an oil boom more than they require any other kind of “boom”.]
“Interdependence
As Scots we believe there’s nowhere better, but we understand there’s something bigger. By contributing to and benefiting from the multi-national, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural United Kingdom of the years ahead, Scotland’s society and culture will be enriched.
Hundreds of thousands of Scots and English have made their homes in each other’s nation. Half of us have English neighbours. Hundreds of thousands of Scots were born in England. This interdependence – the coming together of family, friends, ideas, institutions and identities – is a strength not a weakness, and is an ideal worth celebrating. The truth is we’re better together.
Our case is that Scotland is stronger now and will be stronger in the future – economically, politically, and socially – as a partner in the United Kingdom.”
[Now this is the final pitch, the closing statement that’s supposed to make us want to vote for Westminster by voting no. It’s a shame that it’s the opposite that’s true. Scotland already enjoys a multi-national, multi-ethnic society and more importantly welcomes it. As Scots we actually embrace folk that have come to make their homes here and get involved in our society. This is where true strength comes from and it is that attitude that will build an independent Scotland into the nation we know it can be.
Our friends and family in other parts of these islands that we live on will still be there and the change will be that an independent Scotland and the rUK (rest of the UK) will live together in a partnership of equals which will be better for both. The “Social Union” will remain and get stronger as time goes on.
Their case and parting pitch that “Scotland is stronger now and will be stronger in the future - economically, politically, and socially” only works if we create an independent Scotland by voting yes. I think you should be seeing that by now.]
I’ve spent a long time asking anyone that supports Westminster instead of supporting Scotland and intends to vote no to give me a positive case for supporting Westminster. To this date I’ve had none. None at all.
I looked on the “Better Together” website and the only thing I could find was marked “the +’ve case”, so that’s all I have to go on.
http://bettertogether.net/pages/the-ve-case
Under that tab on their website is the considered positive case for anyone in Scotland to support Westminster instead of supporting Scotland and to make things easier to read I’ll put my responses or rebuttals in square [ ] brackets so you can easily distinguish their words from mine ;-
———————————————————————–
“the +ve case”
[They couldn’t even be bothered typing the word “positive”, could they”]
“We love Scotland.”
[Don't they always say that? "I'm a proud Scot" is the first thing out of their mouths just before launching a verbal or written attack on the abilities or attributes or resources or people of Scotland - who are they trying to convince?]
“We are ambitious for Scotland’s people and Scotland’s possibilities. Our case is not that Scotland could not survive as a separate country – it is that there’s a better choice for our future.”
[So there we have it, a "little" admission that as an independent nation we would "survive" and the beginning of their argument to entice us to stay with the union and to support Westminster because that's what the no voter is voting for - Westminster, or weren't you aware of that?]
“A strong Scottish Parliament within the United Kingdom gives us the best of both worlds: real decision making power here in Scotland, as well as a key role in a strong and secure UK. Now and in the future Scotland is stronger as part of the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom is stronger with Scotland as a partner.”
[The Scottish Parliament is not strong because it can have its powers taken away without much fuss as was proved a couple of months back when the House of Lords removed laws and powers which held back the fracking industry. They carried out that removal in a morning session and then went for a cracking good lunch followed by a sleep in the main, well heated Lords debating chamber. Next point on the same paragraph, the key role they're talking about is the role to house the UK's weapons of mass destruction because that's the safest place to put it, well away from London and the South East of England. Another key role is for Scotland to produce money to be spent in London and the South East of England. I could go on here about the exporting capability holding the UK's balance of payments stable to shore up the rickety pound or the other key role to have our once prolific fishing fleet used as a pawn in negotiations with Europe. That's certainly not much of a partnership, is it? In other words, do I need to go on? Real decision making power? Don’t make me laugh.]
“In the UK the BBC and the Bank of England were founded by Scotsmen. The NHS was founded by a Welshman. The State Pension system was founded by an Englishman. Partners in these islands. Working together, better together.”
[It really doesn't matter (now) who founded these institutions, what really matters is what's happening now. The BBC whilst being a very good producer of straight entertainment also has a covert use as a propaganda channel for Westminster. We witness time after time where that organisation intentionally fails to give any sort of balance on the Scottish independence issues and actually seeks to spin stories or ignore others to the benefit of Westminster.
Next is the Bank of England, it's an independent bank and is already owned by every one of us. We have a share in it. We also have a share in the currency and have £4 billion on deposit in the Bank of England to back up every Scottish note in our pockets, did you realise that? If we are refused a currency union, I think we'd be making a hefty withdrawal, wouldn't we?
The NHS or the idea for the NHS was set up in the Highlands and Islands, if you are at all interested, Hazel Lewry one of our greatest bloggers wrote a history which charts the course of that into the present NHS and you can read it on the link at the bottom of this critique. The main worry here is that if enough people vote for Westminster then Westminster would remove the Scottish Govts powers over the Scottish NHS and embark on a privatisation of it the same as they're doing with the English NHS right now. You’d be surprised at the proportion of Coalition Cabinet Members right now who have a vested interest in a private healthcare company. Personally I would call that a conflict of interest.
http://simplify2014.com/ref/Health_Services_Full_Version.]
The state pension was indeed founded by an Englishman but the method used to fund it was broken by a Scot (Gordon Brown aided and abetted by Ed Balls). So when we look at the statement of “Partners in these islands. Working together, better together”, we have to ask ourselves why we’re being led so far down the garden path as a society in Scotland? We now need to stop that nonsense.]
“We are proud that we fought together to defeat fascism, and worked together to build a welfare state. But the case we make is about what’s best for Scotland’s future.”
[I agree that we worked well together during the conflicts that were forced on us and the Social State was a damn good idea but the Social State has been brutally taken apart by several administrations in Westminster. Indeed, it is apparent that several European nations similar in size to Scotland run much better Social States including much higher pensions.....much higher.]
“Prosperity
Times are really tough at home and really turbulent internationally. In the future Scotland’s prosperity will be strengthened by keeping the British connection. We need more growth, more jobs, and more prosperity in Scotland. We don’t need uncertainty, instability, and barriers for our businesses. In these tough and turbulent times, the size, strength and stability of the UK economy is a huge advantage for Scotland’s businesses. Scotland’s largest market is the rest of the UK. The UK is the world’s oldest and most successful single market and the UK has the oldest and most successful currency – the pound. Scottish businesses are increasingly having to win orders against smart, efficient and productive firms in foreign markets. These competitive challenges will only get tougher in the years ahead. The UK is better placed than a separate Scotland or England to help our businesses find and win new orders across the world.”
[There are two facets to my rebuttal here, first is that Westminster is an incredibly bad steward of the UK's finances and it is responsible for the dreadful state of the UK economy where we see public borrowing hitting £1.6 Trillion by 2016 and in fact stands at £1.3 Trillion as at time on writing this rebuttal. If in fact we put all the borrowings together on these islands and compare that to our combined GDP, we are sitting at 900% debt to GDP ratio which is just short of a Germany that experienced such hyper-inflation that it became cheaper to decorate your house with banknotes than it was to buy wallpaper, their debt to GDP ratio at that time was 913%. The UK economy is quite literally teetering on the very edge of a precipice. (Moneyweek “The end of Britain”) For the people all over these islands change is going to happen whether Scotland opts for independence or not and that change won’t be a pleasant one. So the statement that “In these tough and turbulent times, the size, strength and stability of the UK economy is a huge advantage for Scotland's businesses” is a wildly inaccurate assertion and one that belies the actual state of affairs right now.
So, having said that, what is the reality for Scotland? Let’s look at that.... A country is judged economically by its output, wealth and resources, Just over the last while we've seen proof that Scotland has what it takes to become a small, rich, normal, fairer, more equal, independent, European country and here's why.........
1. (OUTPUT) The Financial Times reported that an independent Scotland would be in the top 35 exporting nations on the planet. Not bad eh? Perhaps we could climb that a bit?
2. (WEALTH) Standard and Poor's, the international ratings agency that give credit ratings for entire countries released a report on an independent Scotland. Business for Scotland did an article on it and this is what they said, "In a massive blow to the credibility of the No Campaign’s scaremongering, the credit rating agency Standard & Poor’s released a report, clearly stating that an independent Scotland would be an investment grade economy. The report states emphatically that S&P would expect Scotland to ‘benefit from all the attributes of an investment-grade sovereign credit’ due to its ‘wealthy’ economy, and that it sees ‘no fundamental reason’ in terms of Scotland’s balance sheet why Scotland could not float its own currency (even though we do not intend to)." Yet again, not bad at all (and you're worrying what currency we'll have? tisk tisk)
3. (RESOURCES) The OECD (Organisation for European Co-operation and Development) gave us a projected worth of our oil and hung a £4 TRILLION price tag on it. The price that the Scottish govt talks about is the low, low price provided by the OBR (Office for Budget Responsibility) set up by George Osborne when the Tories got into power. That department haven't made a single prediction that's come anywhere near true since its inception. They put the price at £1.3 TRILLION. As a Scot looking forward to independence I can certainly live with the lower figure but the OECD do make good predictions and wouldn't it be nice to live in a country that is that rich with a social democratic "Nordic" style society. The opportunities that would give to everyone are mind boggling. Remember that the oil is a bonus and without the oil, Scotland has the same GDP as the rest of the UK.
We live in a low wage, high unemployment service economy. What we need to create is a high wage, low unemployment manufacturing economy. We can do it as all the building blocks are there. Just vote yes.]
“Security
In an uncertain world Scotland’s security will be strengthened as part of the United Kingdom. The British Armed Forces that protect us are the best in the world. In Scotland we are proud of the Forces and proud of the vital contribution that Scotland makes to them. As part of the UK we have real clout in the UN Security Council, NATO, the EU, and we have Embassies around the world.”
[“will be strengthened as part of the United Kingdom......”, far from seeing Scotland’s security strengthened, we’ve seen soldiers handed their P45’s, Royal Air Force bases closed and a Royal Navy that has become a shadow of what it once was, so much indeed that there are no vessels patrolling Scotland’s waters. The “clout” that they talk about is fast becoming a case of smoke and mirrors. Is that the defence strategy we need? No of course not. Scotland has in the eyes of the British Establishment become a “throw away” asset and will only be defended if the resource is available at the time. There is no pro-active defence in Scotland and we are looking at this being the case where our armed forces largely comprised of weekend soldiers will be with us for many decades to come.
We can sort out the defence of Scotland in a much more integrated way and treat our service men and women much better in an independent Scotland. We would be starting from nothing and looking to build a Scottish Defence Force from the ground up and when you consider we have next to nothing now, anything would be much better. Scotland will be budgeting on around £2.5 Billion per year and if you consider that we pay £4 Billion now and get nothing of use, that’s a step in the right direction.
As to our seats on various organisations is concerned, we’re already in Europe and that will continue and we’ll apply to get into the others. Many countries share embassies very effectively and an independent Scotland will start off in a position where we’ll have embassies in key parts of the world which will be added to as we rebuild our country.
The elephant in the room is of course Trident, nuclear submarines (Polaris) were forced upon our country and that has caused economic strife on the Clyde as it has become apparent that the MOD blocked an oil boom on the Clyde in the 80’s to prevent inconvenience to subs arriving at and leaving Faslane. As soon as we get rid of those disgusting weapons, it has been announced in Holyrood that landing the oil in the Clyde would commence as soon as practical. Glasgow and Ayrshire need an oil boom more than they require any other kind of “boom”.]
“Interdependence
As Scots we believe there’s nowhere better, but we understand there’s something bigger. By contributing to and benefiting from the multi-national, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural United Kingdom of the years ahead, Scotland’s society and culture will be enriched.
Hundreds of thousands of Scots and English have made their homes in each other’s nation. Half of us have English neighbours. Hundreds of thousands of Scots were born in England. This interdependence – the coming together of family, friends, ideas, institutions and identities – is a strength not a weakness, and is an ideal worth celebrating. The truth is we’re better together.
Our case is that Scotland is stronger now and will be stronger in the future – economically, politically, and socially – as a partner in the United Kingdom.”
[Now this is the final pitch, the closing statement that’s supposed to make us want to vote for Westminster by voting no. It’s a shame that it’s the opposite that’s true. Scotland already enjoys a multi-national, multi-ethnic society and more importantly welcomes it. As Scots we actually embrace folk that have come to make their homes here and get involved in our society. This is where true strength comes from and it is that attitude that will build an independent Scotland into the nation we know it can be.
Our friends and family in other parts of these islands that we live on will still be there and the change will be that an independent Scotland and the rUK (rest of the UK) will live together in a partnership of equals which will be better for both. The “Social Union” will remain and get stronger as time goes on.
Their case and parting pitch that “Scotland is stronger now and will be stronger in the future - economically, politically, and socially” only works if we create an independent Scotland by voting yes. I think you should be seeing that by now.]
Deleted account 190920002
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Well guys just back from Peterhead called at cousins in Penicuik brother at Eyemouth and no but no one that I know is voting for this bunch of cranks, wee eckie's mob that is. At Peterhead one of my friends was talking about miss? vitriolic, ecks second or third in command (not sure which) and how she would put anyone off voting yes. I'll have to look up her interview on YouTube as I've not seen that little escapade. Hey the ride was nice but very very windy on the A1. I hope the scooter guy I saw got home safe! Friends from auld reekie coming so biking off today pity weather here is mucho better. It could be a nice spring. Hooray.
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Sorry Ron friends said no to vote on Scottish yes/no vote. Passed scooter rider on Bypass weather should be nice for Easter is that okay?
You see you CAN do it, you can string all your delusions together and make a case of your own.....fundamentally flawed, and based on little more than soundbites.... but your own!! Well done.
Sadly however, your intransigence lost your argument for you about 40 pages ago.
For example you glibly say;
'why Scotland could not float its own currency (even though we do not intend to)' So why is it not in THE plan(?) Insisting on keeping the currency of another country instead? Eck, and the other indy nutters have been nationalists for decades, preparing for this very moment, and still have no 'plan'.
'What we need to create is a high wage, low unemployment manufacturing economy.' Fine words... if it were not for a succession of the companies we need for that announcing their intention to relocate due to lack of confidence ...30% according to one poll published today....just words, no plan.
'we’re already in Europe and that will continue and we’ll apply to get into the others.' How many times do you need to be told? Or is this yet more 'Eckshite'.....keep bellowing the same untruths and they'll believe it?
'we get rid of those disgusting weapons, it has been announced in Holyrood ' Sorry, that'll join everything else that has been announced in Holyrood.....currency, Europe, NATO,.....babble and wishful thinking.
'Social State has been BRUTALLY taken apart by several administrations in Westminster.' My caps....your words. Oh come now!! Hysteria won't get you far!
'(and you're worrying what currency we'll have? tisk tisk)'. Well actually....YES! And you think 'tisk tisk' is the answer?? Thanks.
'so much indeed that there are no vessels patrolling Scotland’s waters.' Well, apart from HMS Pembroke, HMS Tracker, HMS Raider, and several others in Loch Long just now that is. But hey, mustn't let the truth interfere with soundbites eh?. Or indeed admit the joblosses that will follow their departure for Portsmouth?
of the Army in Scotland: 'consider we have next to nothing now'.. I'm sure the 4 regular battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland....and the 2 reserve battalions....would be delighted to note your dismissal of their very existence? Again, soundbite and ignorance versus fact. Wonder how many of them will choose to serve Eck??
'will live together in a partnership of equals' Eh? No currency, no central bank, no fiscal autonomy, dwindling production . Equal with who....oh yes, I forgot, Greenland.
So, good effort. Not good enough though, built on sand, and never will be because you are defending the indefensible. Well done anyway. The sad thing is that you are obviously genuine in your beliefs....you've convinced yourself with your own twaddle!
Sadly however, your intransigence lost your argument for you about 40 pages ago.
For example you glibly say;
'why Scotland could not float its own currency (even though we do not intend to)' So why is it not in THE plan(?) Insisting on keeping the currency of another country instead? Eck, and the other indy nutters have been nationalists for decades, preparing for this very moment, and still have no 'plan'.
'What we need to create is a high wage, low unemployment manufacturing economy.' Fine words... if it were not for a succession of the companies we need for that announcing their intention to relocate due to lack of confidence ...30% according to one poll published today....just words, no plan.
'we’re already in Europe and that will continue and we’ll apply to get into the others.' How many times do you need to be told? Or is this yet more 'Eckshite'.....keep bellowing the same untruths and they'll believe it?
'we get rid of those disgusting weapons, it has been announced in Holyrood ' Sorry, that'll join everything else that has been announced in Holyrood.....currency, Europe, NATO,.....babble and wishful thinking.
'Social State has been BRUTALLY taken apart by several administrations in Westminster.' My caps....your words. Oh come now!! Hysteria won't get you far!
'(and you're worrying what currency we'll have? tisk tisk)'. Well actually....YES! And you think 'tisk tisk' is the answer?? Thanks.
'so much indeed that there are no vessels patrolling Scotland’s waters.' Well, apart from HMS Pembroke, HMS Tracker, HMS Raider, and several others in Loch Long just now that is. But hey, mustn't let the truth interfere with soundbites eh?. Or indeed admit the joblosses that will follow their departure for Portsmouth?
of the Army in Scotland: 'consider we have next to nothing now'.. I'm sure the 4 regular battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland....and the 2 reserve battalions....would be delighted to note your dismissal of their very existence? Again, soundbite and ignorance versus fact. Wonder how many of them will choose to serve Eck??
'will live together in a partnership of equals' Eh? No currency, no central bank, no fiscal autonomy, dwindling production . Equal with who....oh yes, I forgot, Greenland.
So, good effort. Not good enough though, built on sand, and never will be because you are defending the indefensible. Well done anyway. The sad thing is that you are obviously genuine in your beliefs....you've convinced yourself with your own twaddle!
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You are not going to get an opinion from Toddy. He is a cybernat and banned from espousing any opinion other than the one he has been given for that day. Cut and paste a line from his posts and google to see where today's words of wisdom came from.
Maybe the SNP should ask their pals in Moscow to send in some troops in kilts to help secure the result they want in the referendum like they are currently doing in Crimea.
Maybe the SNP should ask their pals in Moscow to send in some troops in kilts to help secure the result they want in the referendum like they are currently doing in Crimea.
Much better. Thanks
Well silly me. I thought....because his post says so....that it was his own thoughts and opinion....we now know that his whole post was a cutnpaste from somewhere else.
So, we still haven't heard a cogent genuine opinion from Toddy....it was all some-one elses delusion and soundbites. About sums up the whole campaign really.
He's as big a fraud as the rest of them.
Toddy
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From the Grumpy Scotsman
FEAR, FEAR, FEAR AND OH MORE FEAR
I have been bored with the FEAR for a long time now and it’s going to get worse over the next six months to the extent that Scotland might just be returning to the dark ages sometimes soon.
If you believe Bitter Together, the BBC or EBC, the Times, the Sun, the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Courier, the Mirror, the Herald, the Scotsman, the so called left wing Guardian, the Daily Record, the Star, Sky News, Shell, RBS, Standard Life, Lloyds, and the woman who makes bras in Glasgow we are f&£@ed if we vote YES in September.
We won’t have the pound, we won’t be in Europe, we won’t have an army, food will be more expensive, they’ll be no jobs, energy will be too dear, no Dr Who, my pension will be lost, ships will no longer be built in Scotland, I’ll need a passport to go to funland, no one will like me, my taxes will go up by £2000 a year. Breath. I’ll be forced to use the euro even if I’m not in Europe, we’ll have no treaties, the oil will run out, my credit rating will be in the toilet, I won’t have the Royal Mail (yes I know), there will be no investment, no one will buy our stuff, we won’t get duel citizenship, my granny will be a foreigner if she lives in funland, we don’t get to keep any assets, no shared intelligence (yes what intelligence I know). Breath. China will take back the pandas, terrorists will attack me, we won’t have David Cameron, Ed Miliband, Ed Balls, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, Vice Cable, Jim Murphy, Margaret Curran, Danny Alexander, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and David Bowie.
You have to love the Unionists but when you consider the above ask yourself one question, who is more afraid you or them?
My answer is, F@&K IT, I’m voting YES anyway, what do I have to lose. I don’t live in a country where my vote counts, I don’t live in a country that values people, I live in a country that’s only response to the democratic will of the people is to bully and scare them, a country that attacks the poorest and most vulnerable, I live in a country with three Tory Parties, really what do I have to lose.
FEAR, FEAR, FEAR AND OH MORE FEAR
I have been bored with the FEAR for a long time now and it’s going to get worse over the next six months to the extent that Scotland might just be returning to the dark ages sometimes soon.
If you believe Bitter Together, the BBC or EBC, the Times, the Sun, the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Courier, the Mirror, the Herald, the Scotsman, the so called left wing Guardian, the Daily Record, the Star, Sky News, Shell, RBS, Standard Life, Lloyds, and the woman who makes bras in Glasgow we are f&£@ed if we vote YES in September.
We won’t have the pound, we won’t be in Europe, we won’t have an army, food will be more expensive, they’ll be no jobs, energy will be too dear, no Dr Who, my pension will be lost, ships will no longer be built in Scotland, I’ll need a passport to go to funland, no one will like me, my taxes will go up by £2000 a year. Breath. I’ll be forced to use the euro even if I’m not in Europe, we’ll have no treaties, the oil will run out, my credit rating will be in the toilet, I won’t have the Royal Mail (yes I know), there will be no investment, no one will buy our stuff, we won’t get duel citizenship, my granny will be a foreigner if she lives in funland, we don’t get to keep any assets, no shared intelligence (yes what intelligence I know). Breath. China will take back the pandas, terrorists will attack me, we won’t have David Cameron, Ed Miliband, Ed Balls, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, Vice Cable, Jim Murphy, Margaret Curran, Danny Alexander, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and David Bowie.
You have to love the Unionists but when you consider the above ask yourself one question, who is more afraid you or them?
My answer is, F@&K IT, I’m voting YES anyway, what do I have to lose. I don’t live in a country where my vote counts, I don’t live in a country that values people, I live in a country that’s only response to the democratic will of the people is to bully and scare them, a country that attacks the poorest and most vulnerable, I live in a country with three Tory Parties, really what do I have to lose.
'really what do I have to lose'
Perhaps you've answered most of that in your third paragraph above
Perhaps you've answered most of that in your third paragraph above
Deleted account 210516001
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Fixed it for you. This saves space and avoids any suspicion that you have a point of view of your own to put forward.
All praise to the BBC, I see The Voice have now produced a virtual coach app based on the Westminster electoral system for Scotland.
What you do is download the app and go through all the motions as if you were a real coach with a real vote and see how close you get to the real result.
It really sounds like a fun alternative for us virtual voters - the so called Scottish Electorate - and of course, it makes no difference to the actual outcome!
Read on........
The Voice UK App
This year we have a BRAND NEW APP!! There are loads of new features (clips, news, galleries, social) and a brilliant new game called HomeCoach, where we put YOU in the coach’s chair.
How the HomeCoach Game works
During the show: play along in real time and decide who you think should go through. See whether the coaches agree with you – earn stars when they do!
Rate the performances with the ‘rate-o-meter’ function
See what other HomeCoaches think: Connect with Facebook to find out which way your friends are turning!
Test your knowledge: play The Voice trivia quiz between shows
Watch all the performances again: view all the latest clips, news and galleries in our 'Latest' section
During the Lives: Rate performances, join the fan walls and voice your opinion in live polls
If you want to show off…
Feel free to share your decisions or your score, Tweet, Facebook or Instagram about the app using #thevoiceukapp..........
What you do is download the app and go through all the motions as if you were a real coach with a real vote and see how close you get to the real result.
It really sounds like a fun alternative for us virtual voters - the so called Scottish Electorate - and of course, it makes no difference to the actual outcome!
Read on........
The Voice UK App
This year we have a BRAND NEW APP!! There are loads of new features (clips, news, galleries, social) and a brilliant new game called HomeCoach, where we put YOU in the coach’s chair.
How the HomeCoach Game works
During the show: play along in real time and decide who you think should go through. See whether the coaches agree with you – earn stars when they do!
Rate the performances with the ‘rate-o-meter’ function
See what other HomeCoaches think: Connect with Facebook to find out which way your friends are turning!
Test your knowledge: play The Voice trivia quiz between shows
Watch all the performances again: view all the latest clips, news and galleries in our 'Latest' section
During the Lives: Rate performances, join the fan walls and voice your opinion in live polls
If you want to show off…
Feel free to share your decisions or your score, Tweet, Facebook or Instagram about the app using #thevoiceukapp..........
Meanwhile in a Scottish bank
Alex Salmond walks into a Royal Bank to cash a cheque. As he approaches the cashier he says, "Good morning, Ma'am, could you please cash this cheque for me?"
Cashier:"It would be my pleasure sir. Could you please show me your ID?"
Salmond :"Truthfully, I did not bring my ID with me as I didn't think there was any need to. I am Alex Salmond, the leader of the Scottish National Party and First Minister of Scotland !!!!"
Cashier:"Yes sir, I know who you are, but with all the regulations and monitoring of the banks because of impostors and forgers and requirements of the legislation, etc., I must insist on seeing ID."
Salmond : Just ask anyone here at the bank who I am and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am."
Cashier: "I am sorry, Mr. Salmond , but these are the bank rules and I must follow them."
Salmond :"C'mon lassie . I am urging you, please, to cash this cheque."
Cashier: "Look Mr. Salmond, here is an example of what we can do.
One day, Tiger Woods came into the bank without ID. To prove he was Tiger Woods he pulled out his putter and made a beautiful shot across the bank into a cup. With that shot we knew him to be Tiger Woods and cashed his cheque.
Another time, Andre Agassi came in without ID. He pulled out his tennis racket and made a fabulous shot whereas the tennis ball landed in my cup. With that shot we cashed his cheque.
So, Mr. Salmond , what can you do to prove that it is you, and only you?
Salmond stands there thinking, and thinking, and finally says, "Honestly, my mind is a total blank...there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can't think of a single thing. I have absolutely no idea what to do and I don't have a clue."
Cashier: "Will that be large or small notes , Mr. Salmond ?
Alex Salmond walks into a Royal Bank to cash a cheque. As he approaches the cashier he says, "Good morning, Ma'am, could you please cash this cheque for me?"
Cashier:"It would be my pleasure sir. Could you please show me your ID?"
Salmond :"Truthfully, I did not bring my ID with me as I didn't think there was any need to. I am Alex Salmond, the leader of the Scottish National Party and First Minister of Scotland !!!!"
Cashier:"Yes sir, I know who you are, but with all the regulations and monitoring of the banks because of impostors and forgers and requirements of the legislation, etc., I must insist on seeing ID."
Salmond : Just ask anyone here at the bank who I am and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am."
Cashier: "I am sorry, Mr. Salmond , but these are the bank rules and I must follow them."
Salmond :"C'mon lassie . I am urging you, please, to cash this cheque."
Cashier: "Look Mr. Salmond, here is an example of what we can do.
One day, Tiger Woods came into the bank without ID. To prove he was Tiger Woods he pulled out his putter and made a beautiful shot across the bank into a cup. With that shot we knew him to be Tiger Woods and cashed his cheque.
Another time, Andre Agassi came in without ID. He pulled out his tennis racket and made a fabulous shot whereas the tennis ball landed in my cup. With that shot we cashed his cheque.
So, Mr. Salmond , what can you do to prove that it is you, and only you?
Salmond stands there thinking, and thinking, and finally says, "Honestly, my mind is a total blank...there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can't think of a single thing. I have absolutely no idea what to do and I don't have a clue."
Cashier: "Will that be large or small notes , Mr. Salmond ?
Alex Salmond walks into a Royal Bank to cash a cheque. As he approaches the cashier he says, "Good morning, Ma'am, could you please cash this cheque for me?"
Cashier:"It would be my pleasure sir. Could you please show me your ID?"
Salmond :"Truthfully, I did not bring my ID with me as I didn't think there was any need to. I am Alex Salmond, the leader of the Scottish National Party and First Minister of Scotland !!!!"
Cashier:"Yes sir, I know who you are, but with all the regulations and monitoring of the banks because of impostors and forgers and requirements of the legislation, etc., I must insist on seeing ID."
Salmond : Just ask anyone here at the bank who I am and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am."
Cashier: "I am sorry, Mr. Salmond , but these are the bank rules and I must follow them."
Salmond :"C'mon lassie . I am urging you, please, to cash this cheque."
Cashier: "Look Mr. Salmond, here is an example of what we can do.
One day, Tiger Woods came into the bank without ID. To prove he was Tiger Woods he pulled out his putter and made a beautiful shot across the bank into a cup. With that shot we knew him to be Tiger Woods and cashed his cheque.
Another time, Andre Agassi came in without ID. He pulled out his tennis racket and made a fabulous shot whereas the tennis ball landed in my cup. With that shot we cashed his cheque.
So, Mr. Salmond , what can you do to prove that it is you, and only you?
Salmond stands there thinking, and thinking, and finally says, "Honestly, my mind is a total blank...there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can't think of a single thing. I have absolutely no idea what to do and I don't have a clue."
Cashier: "Will that be large or small notes , Mr. Salmond ?
Very good. Of, course you could insert the names of Cameron, Milliband or that utter twat from UKIP and the joke would work just as well.
Which is a real worry...
Edit: Farage is an utter twat but I hope my post doesn't suggest that the others named are any less so
Toddy
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Deleted account 210516001
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That's it then. A fake No campaign website has the result. No point in going on with the real referendum. Where do we sign up for our copies of the works of chairman Eck? I presume it will be a little blue book.
Or could it be yet another indication that the cybernats are more full of piss than my granny's mattress. Only the 19th September will tell us the truth unless there is a vast surge in dodgy postal votes for the Yes side in which case its a feeding frenzy for the lawyers.
Toddy
Registered user
Shinyface
Registered user
plan...
Toddys long term plan ( well til 19th Sept )........must post more bollocks, must post more bollocks, must post more bollocks.........well you have been successful so far.....
Shinyface
Toddys long term plan ( well til 19th Sept )........must post more bollocks, must post more bollocks, must post more bollocks.........well you have been successful so far.....
Shinyface
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