Hilltop Results on the LC
- Thread starter Dodgy Burt
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Aren't they French by origin
They might disagree with you - get him to explain in writing
Deleted account 211025001
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How very dare you
Maybe.........un peu
Andres
Whatever the origins they did build the N-260 and are therefore wonderful people
GS-Jonesy
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Despite all of the bickering I'm finding this quite interesting.
Engineer - You obviously have some knowledge re hardware and software. I understand your point re flash memory is correct..but what if there is sufficient space for additional data to be added without having to write over the original data? If I was Mr BMW I would leave some space to ensure space for any future updates that may require more space (BTW I have no idea if this is the case or not - just wondering)
And therefore a software update that didn't involve a total rewrite would/could (in theory) not "wipe" all existing data in the ECU...be that OEM data or a new map from a tuner like Hilltop. It's possible...all dependent on how the data is stored and used on the ECU I think.
A mate who is a developer has a saying that anything is possible with code. Just time, money and determination needed to make it happen. My inner geek is intrigued and I will definitely pop over to Hilltop if they have another open day...worst case scenario is a nice ride and free brew
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Engineer - You obviously have some knowledge re hardware and software. I understand your point re flash memory is correct..but what if there is sufficient space for additional data to be added without having to write over the original data? If I was Mr BMW I would leave some space to ensure space for any future updates that may require more space (BTW I have no idea if this is the case or not - just wondering)
And therefore a software update that didn't involve a total rewrite would/could (in theory) not "wipe" all existing data in the ECU...be that OEM data or a new map from a tuner like Hilltop. It's possible...all dependent on how the data is stored and used on the ECU I think.
A mate who is a developer has a saying that anything is possible with code. Just time, money and determination needed to make it happen. My inner geek is intrigued and I will definitely pop over to Hilltop if they have another open day...worst case scenario is a nice ride and free brew
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Careful that sounds like an open mind. Won't go down well. 
I find these discussions interesting
Anyway here is another link to show what can be done to 'influence' the numbers
http://www.rndengineering.co.uk/page_p12.htm
Two things that can make the customer happy
Just get rid of the bhp/ torque dip at approx 4500rpm
Change the conversion factor to give slightly more bup between initial run and final run ( I have seen this done)
Customer rides away
He is very happy because he notices a great improvement but as this is usually around the 4000 to 6000 rpm mark it is solely due to removing the dip in that region.
All that really matters is that the customer feels there has been some improvement and worth the money spent but as soon as he starts posting graphs/ numbers the debate begins
I am sceptical of some of the numbers posted on here but my scepticism is based on my past knowledge gained when tuning a race car engine that I built . That involved cam profiles, exhaust, individual cylinder tuning
Anyway here is another link to show what can be done to 'influence' the numbers
http://www.rndengineering.co.uk/page_p12.htm
Two things that can make the customer happy
Just get rid of the bhp/ torque dip at approx 4500rpm
Change the conversion factor to give slightly more bup between initial run and final run ( I have seen this done)
Customer rides away
He is very happy because he notices a great improvement but as this is usually around the 4000 to 6000 rpm mark it is solely due to removing the dip in that region.
All that really matters is that the customer feels there has been some improvement and worth the money spent but as soon as he starts posting graphs/ numbers the debate begins
I am sceptical of some of the numbers posted on here but my scepticism is based on my past knowledge gained when tuning a race car engine that I built . That involved cam profiles, exhaust, individual cylinder tuning
Ok Engineer please explain the following:
Initial Dyno run on my LC gave bhp at rear wheel around 99 - i.e. In line with what you would expect
After remap Dyno gave around 122 - upper end of what you normally get but I have Remus headers and Akra can
Over the next year bike goes in for two services and has one major software upgrade and one minor
And now the good bit!
Bike is tested again (spring this year) at an independent Dyno place (Powerbiking) without telling them anything about its history and they get Dyno figures within 5% of the the post remap ones Geoff got.
So two conclusions:
Whatever Geoff did is NOT affected by BMW software upgrades
The Dyno figures From Hilltop were independently verified one year on and were pretty much identical (Karlp this is relevant to the point you raised)
Titto
Registered user
I'm sure I've read on here (somewhere on one of these many threads) that if you let the bike do its system check then it activates the hilltop remap, if you just turn the key and start it up straight away then it defaults to the original map...
I asked Geoff to give me some more information on whether a BMW update would overwrite his work, and it doesn't apparently, but I was not filled with confidence, I don't know why. I think if things were posted by him in more detail then it would help. Knowing the amount of software updates the BMW bikes go through historically put me off, I just spent the money on another hotel and for me had a cracking short break!
If there was a definitive "this is a separate map loaded differently to the BMW map" comment from Geoff that would boost my confidence.
I have ridden a twin cam and a wc that were stock but hilltopped...you could clearly tell they were different and for the better (but not 350 quid better) Im just reluctant to spend 350 quid, which is considerable, without the backup of knowing it is a permanent feature.
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I asked Geoff to give me some more information on whether a BMW update would overwrite his work, and it doesn't apparently, but I was not filled with confidence, I don't know why. I think if things were posted by him in more detail then it would help. Knowing the amount of software updates the BMW bikes go through historically put me off, I just spent the money on another hotel and for me had a cracking short break!
If there was a definitive "this is a separate map loaded differently to the BMW map" comment from Geoff that would boost my confidence.
I have ridden a twin cam and a wc that were stock but hilltopped...you could clearly tell they were different and for the better (but not 350 quid better) Im just reluctant to spend 350 quid, which is considerable, without the backup of knowing it is a permanent feature.
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sven
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Personally I'd like to see an independent before and after dyno test as the "before" figures are much lower than anyone else seems to measure at the rear wheel 
It's not your scepticism, it's the way you go on every hilltop thread asking the same questions, when you have been given opportunities to talk to Geoff in person, or on the phone, to find out exactly how it works but have chosen not to. I have no doubts that it works, and have first hand experience, so can confirm that it's a very worthwhile modification.
It's almost as if you seem to get a buzz out of stirring the shit, and trying to put potential customers off. It's called trolling.
I can confirm 100% (from experience) that a BMW software update doesn't affect a Hilltop remap.
Personally I'd like to see an independent before and after dyno test as the "before" figures are much lower than anyone else seems to measure at the rear wheel
That's the only thing that doesn't sit quite right with me. The "before" figures do seem very low, and there seems to be a significant difference between stock bikes without the map.
Even with a remap these awesome steeds are only putting out 113bhp and 88ft/lbs of torque, dear oh dear oh dear
Andres
Cookie's bike is like a missile
Your 1190's have some oomph
Personally I'd like to see an independent before and after dyno test as the "before" figures are much lower than anyone else seems to measure at the rear wheel
Can only speak from personal experience of my own bike and the initial run at Hilltop was pretty much what you would expect I.e. 100bhp at the rear wheel.
Mine did have IIRC about 6,000 miles on it when it was originally done, about 16,000 was it was tested at Powerbiking and now has 22,000.
But if you spend £350 on an end can, you do get something that looks & sounds nice .. and you get some money back when you sell it on.
You on the other hand are just buying a download.
For what it's worth my first 1200GS had been Hilltopped before I had it.
I have no idea if it improved the bike, all I know is it felt like a bag of shite after the Honda missile I had just moved on.
But this was a good thing & part of my plan to move away from warp speed, as I found flawless perfection pretty dull actually, and a risky game to play in Big brother Britain.
Next came the Twin Cam, another step up from the Hilltopped early model, punchier, livelier and more spirited ... brilliant bike!
And now we have the LC version, faster and more refined still & dangerously close to what I was trying to get away from when I got the first GS.
I don't need any more power.
I couldn't give a shiny shite if their is a dip at 5000 rpm.
I have no problem with a bit of vibration or if the fuelling's a bit lumpy at low speed.
It's a boxer twin, it's supposed to have character .... Plenty of other bikes available if bland forward motion is your thing!
The voice of reasonableness
sven
Registered user
Most dyno charts show around 110-115bhp at the rear wheel, which is what you'd expect from a 125bhp bike with transmission loss.
This dyno chart uses different correction factors for a relatively small difference in humidity i.e. 1.005 on the before chart and 1.01 on the after chart. How does this affect the final readouts? Is it simply a 0.95% difference or is it a bigger influence than that?
This dyno chart uses different correction factors for a relatively small difference in humidity i.e. 1.005 on the before chart and 1.01 on the after chart. How does this affect the final readouts? Is it simply a 0.95% difference or is it a bigger influence than that?
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Deleted account 211025001
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Cookie's is one of the slower ones as his hasn't been remapped.........
........mine has
Andres
EXACTLY!! Thanx for that. That is more or less the gist of it. I just couldn't be arsed trying to explain to a know it all who wont simply go and have a chat with Geoff
Despite all of the bickering I'm finding this quite interesting.
Engineer - You obviously have some knowledge re hardware and software. I understand your point re flash memory is correct..but what if there is sufficient space for additional data to be added without having to write over the original data? If I was Mr BMW I would leave some space to ensure space for any future updates that may require more space (BTW I have no idea if this is the case or not - just wondering)
And therefore a software update that didn't involve a total rewrite would/could (in theory) not "wipe" all existing data in the ECU...be that OEM data or a new map from a tuner like Hilltop. It's possible...all dependent on how the data is stored and used on the ECU I think.
A mate who is a developer has a saying that anything is possible with code. Just time, money and determination needed to make it happen. My inner geek is intrigued and I will definitely pop over to Hilltop if they have another open day...worst case scenario is a nice ride and free brew
It is interesting
This could start to get too complex to explain, but you are correct, in our products we typically have two copies of our code so there is a backup in case of a fail during a field upgrade - checksums are checked and if the new code is corrupted it reverts to the backup, there are many ways things can be done. All I want to know is the answer to a few questions and for them to be made public so that we can all understand both the upsides and downsides to having a re-map.These are just three such questions.
What happens if BMW do a critical fuelling (perhaps safety) update? Will this critical update be ignored?
What is the effect upon emissions after a re-map?
After a re-map are any of the sensors, switches etc ignored?
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