1. I hope so.
2. Who cares?
3. See answer #2
PS. I'm sure Geoff could tell you if you asked him.
2. Who cares?
3. See answer #2
PS. I'm sure Geoff could tell you if you asked him.
Hilltop Results on the LC
- Thread starter Dodgy Burt
- Start date
It is interestingThis could start to get too complex to explain, but you are correct, in our products we typically have two copies of our code so there is a backup in case of a fail during a field upgrade - checksums are checked and if the new code is corrupted it reverts to the backup, there are many ways things can be done. All I want to know is the answer to a few questions and for them to be made public so that we can all understand both the upsides and downsides to having a re-map.
These are just three such questions.
What happens if BMW do a critical fuelling (perhaps safety) update? Will this critical update be ignored?
What is the effect upon emissions after a re-map?
After a re-map are any of the sensors, switches etc ignored?
Didn't you have the chance to go to Geoff's / Hilltops open day? Were he offered to explain to all interested in as great or as little detail as required. Have you called him to ask for answers to your questions?
Personally I'd like to see an independent before and after dyno test as the "before" figures are much lower than anyone else seems to measure at the rear wheel
Mine were not on the RT, my RT hit 108 BHP on the before run, I posted the graphs, and Geoff was left saying it's a fit bike and there is no likelihood of more power, but he can smooth the curve. In the end I got the curve I wanted, and 119 BHP and 92 Ft/Lbs.
GS-Jonesy
Registered user
I think these are all fair questions mate. I personally would not have a re-map until I was happy with answers to them. Before I'm hung, drawn and quartered for that statement let me add that it does not mean those that have had a remap have done anything wrong. Horses for courses and all that good stuff.
Only one of those I can offer an educated opinion to is No2. Emissions will definitely go up. I use to work in the insurance industry and one of my customers owned a small company in Kent that did R&D work for Jag Landrover on their ECU's and other systems like ABS, Stability Control etc etc. I did his business and professional indemnities insurance for him and as you can imagine the limits were pretty big numbers so we spent a lot of time trying to understand what he did and the risks we were covering. He told us that since the 2006 emission based tax system came in engines were tuned primarily for emissions. He said removing that restriction from engine development would allow an immediate increase of 20-25% in power output. He also said it was having a negative impact on fuel economy.
Negative impact on emissions makes little difference at the moment but might in the future if rules around MOT's and or TAX change?!?!
E. Buygum
Registered user
I think part of the eternal Hilltop misunderstanding is that what Geoff does is often loosely referred to as a "remap" and the equivalent of a Power Commander. It isn't. The ECU is a chip which runs a variant of LINUX (and has a reasonable amount of RAM associated with it). If you are clever enough (both in terms of understanding how engines work and also in terms of software engineering), you could make the ECU do very clever things including switching between multiple maps, optimised for different operating parameters. You could write the software so it looked unmolested if it encounters standard diagnostics. (Almost along the lines of what VW did). You could write it so that routine manufacturer mapping updates are ignored. You just need to know what you are doing, have good sources of information and be prepared to experiment a bit and risk blowing up a few ECUs until you know what you are doing.
I regularly remapped my Triumph Sprint using TuneBoy software and got some good results and, far more often, some awful results. My background is in software engineering so I was intrigued to understand the process at Hilltop so I did what is advised above...I talked to Geoff and satisfied myself that what he was doing made sense (so don't take my word for it). I'm now on my third Hilltoped bike...each has become smoother and more economical. I'm not interested in power.
This isn't addressed particularly to anyone but if you just hate the idea of tinkering with manufacturer's kit/ are nervous about insurance implications/ are nervous about voiding warranty, then just don't do it. If you're relaxed about all that but still sceptical about the claims, just have a chat with Geoff and he'll be as open about what he does as he realistically can be. It probably is all in a grey area and if you have invested a lot of time, energy and blown ECUs, you'd probably want to be a bit sparing about some of the details of the process but to suggest it's trickery or mumbo jumbo in the face of so many personal testiimonies is shoddy. It rather reminds me of the Catholic Church denying the evidence Galileo which presented to support Copernicus' model of the solar system: "it doesn't fit what we believe so it must be the work of the devil".
I regularly remapped my Triumph Sprint using TuneBoy software and got some good results and, far more often, some awful results. My background is in software engineering so I was intrigued to understand the process at Hilltop so I did what is advised above...I talked to Geoff and satisfied myself that what he was doing made sense (so don't take my word for it). I'm now on my third Hilltoped bike...each has become smoother and more economical. I'm not interested in power.
This isn't addressed particularly to anyone but if you just hate the idea of tinkering with manufacturer's kit/ are nervous about insurance implications/ are nervous about voiding warranty, then just don't do it. If you're relaxed about all that but still sceptical about the claims, just have a chat with Geoff and he'll be as open about what he does as he realistically can be. It probably is all in a grey area and if you have invested a lot of time, energy and blown ECUs, you'd probably want to be a bit sparing about some of the details of the process but to suggest it's trickery or mumbo jumbo in the face of so many personal testiimonies is shoddy. It rather reminds me of the Catholic Church denying the evidence Galileo which presented to support Copernicus' model of the solar system: "it doesn't fit what we believe so it must be the work of the devil".
No you are wrong
Thanks - I think they are very fair questions not least the one about will BMW critical fuelling updates work after you have had a re-map or will they be ignored - seems like a crucial question to me for obvious reasons.
There are plenty of posts from you that prove that I am correct.
So what we need is some method of fooling people that our bike is producing low emissions when tested but revert back to full power when back on the road and sod the emissions. Now let me think.................
GS-Jonesy
Registered user
I got it done. I don't really care what the numbers say or how Geoff does what he does, but when I left I rode off on a much smoother, livelier bike. Works for me and that's all that really counts.
Why is it that every time someone mentions Hilltop all the Trolls come out? If you don't like it, don't do it, but there's no need to slag it off.
Why is it that every time someone mentions Hilltop all the Trolls come out? If you don't like it, don't do it, but there's no need to slag it off.
That is fine, I am not a troll (not sure what one is anyway) but me and and few other thinking souls don't blindly follow and question what we would really be getting for our £350 and want to know both sides - we know the good that is obvious but what about the questions that I asked - definitive written answers please. No harm will be done to an honest business by answering them, in fact the opposite is true.
I deal with loads of semiconductor manufacturers and suppliers, not one refuses to send me an email in response to technical queries when I ask for detailed specifications and advice, they are more than happy to tell me about their products and services.
You can't beat a good Hilltop thread
Engineer will you be having your bike done if and when you get the answers ?
I would imagine that information is given under a supplier contract which includes an NDA (non-disclosure arrangement). This will have been produced by your procurement division - they are the nice people who sit a long way away from you at work, although that may not be helpful as I would imagine most people try to sit as far away from you as possible at your work
Should you then plaster any commercially sensitive information over the internet you would probably need to change your name on here to ex-Engineer!
If you were genuinely interested in the details of how Geoff gets his results, as opposed to simply arguing the toss about every point from behind your keyboard, you would simply do what E.Buygum (who is a software engineer) did and give Geoff a call and have his questions answered to his satisfaction.
Geoff has said several times he's happy to talk to people who want more information, or you can go over and see what he does, or you can even have the work done and if you don't like it you get your money back!
So go on Engineer, pick up the phone and give Geoff a call! What have you got to lose?
'One cannot beat a good Hilltop thread' surely is better English :;
I would imagine that information is given under a supplier contract which includes an NDA (non-disclosure arrangement). This will have been produced by your procurement division - they are the nice people who sit a long way away from you at work, although that may not be helpful as I would imagine most people try to sit as far away from you as possible at your work
Should you then plaster any commercially sensitive information over the internet you would probably need to change your name on here to ex-Engineer!
If you were genuinely interested in the details of how Geoff gets his results, as opposed to simply arguing the toss about every point from behind your keyboard, you would simply do what E.Buygum (who is a software engineer) did and give Geoff a call and have his questions answered to his satisfaction.
Geoff has said several times he's happy to talk to people who want more information, or you can go over and see what he does, or you can even have the work done and if you don't like it you get your money back!
So go on Engineer, pick up the phone and give Geoff a call! What have you got to lose?
Those 3 questions don't require an NDA!
I see your Hilltop thread and raise you a "heated grips thread"- it's getting cold out there!
Speaking of the cold JB isn't it time you put your old 1150 tractors back into their barns for the winter (or have you got a plastic bubble too)
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